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[Rusty Madra]

Would it kill them to put a day spa and a nightclub in too? .... Dont even start me about the wifi problems in the area 

[Ed]

Buy some nice wooden waymarker posts, put a tourist information point in donard car park with maps, safety information, first aid kids for sale etc - and let the fatties get off their arses and take on the grinderIf it's there people will use it, half the fun of Donard is the first part of the walk knocking the stuffing out of you and getting you nicely warmed up for a day in the mournes!

what about wheelchair users and perhaps elderly people who hiked the hills in their younger days?

It's very unlikely any mountain route is going to be fully wheelchair friendly. So the gondola gets a wheelchair user as far as the tip of Donard Wood. What then?

As regards the elderly, they'd be better served as LandyLiam says by choosing a route within their capabilities. We can't remake the mountains to be all things to all people - they would then cease to be mountains.

[spin]

As regards the elderly, they'd be better served as LandyLiam says by choosing a route within their capabilities. We can't remake the mountains to be all things to all people - they would then cease to be mountains.[/quote]


The mountains will never cease to be mountains. They were mountains long before any of us were lucky enough to have fun on them and they will still be mountains long after we are all fit enough to enjoy them as we do now.
It is my considered and personal opinion that the Mournes aren't there just for our exclusive use. All of us who have had happy times on the mountains should be grateful for that and for our physical ability to access them. I would LOVE as many other people as possible to, by whatever means, get opportunities to share the joy that the hills have brought me. 

[LandyLiam]

I would LOVE as many other people as possible to, by whatever means, get opportunities to share the joy that the hills have brought me.

hear hear, so many people are missing such a wonderful experience, many by choice, but some by inability, but those who get the gondola up with not feel the same joy as those who walked up 

[spin]

I would LOVE as many other people as possible to, by whatever means, get opportunities to share the joy that the hills have brought me.

hear hear, so many people are missing such a wonderful experience, many by choice, but some by inability, but those who get the gondola up with not feel the same joy as those who walked up 

[/i]

What is the measure of joy though?? It's all relative, it could be the most awesome experience of their life. For people who may be fit enough but currently choose for whatever reason, not to play in the hills as we all do,  it could gently let them see that the mountains aren't as daunting as they may have thought. Everyone's experience is so unique and equally valid to them. I certainly have no judgement on how people enjoy the mountains. 

[LandyLiam]

very true, but the reality is that the gondola is only proposed to go to the quarry, so there will be no real view of the mountains  but a nice view of newcastle   

i was once on snowdon on a busy weekend, it was easy to spot who had walked up and who had taken the train (not just by their attire) those that had walked looked a lot happier, and exhausted   

[Ed]

As regards the elderly, they'd be better served as LandyLiam says by choosing a route within their capabilities. We can't remake the mountains to be all things to all people - they would then cease to be mountains.


The mountains will never cease to be mountains. They were mountains long before any of us were lucky enough to have fun on them and they will still be mountains long after we are all fit enough to enjoy them as we do now.
It is my considered and personal opinion that the Mournes aren't there just for our exclusive use. All of us who have had happy times on the mountains should be grateful for that and for our physical ability to access them. I would LOVE as many other people as possible to, by whatever means, get opportunities to share the joy that the hills have brought me. 

We certainly don't disagree on the joy of the hills, where we disagree is on "by whatever means"
I'm grateful I have the means to get up into the mountains, but were I suddenly deprived of said means, I wouldn't expect the mountains to be modified to compensate.

Yes they will never cease to be mountains by name, my point wasn't meant to be taken quite that specifically. My point was that we can all talk about conservation till we're blue in the face but if we're going to be building gondolas, smooth paths, gift shops, welcome centers and whatever other conveniences then we're altering (and destroying) the original wild character of the mountain we set out to enjoy in the first place.

Mountaineering Ireland's article this quarter "Vulnerable Hills" lays this out quite well, they suggest that upland work should be for the preservation of the mountain only, not to make it easier or safer to climb - and I tend to agree with them.

To be clear I'm not against greater access or uptake of hillwalking - I'm against modifying the character of the environment we all enjoy and have a responsibility to preserve. Leave no trace has little meaning when it comes to chocolate wrappers and orange peels if you're whacking up gondolas and miles of unnecessary path on the other hand.

[Mourneman]

As regards the elderly, they'd be better served as LandyLiam says by choosing a route within their capabilities. We can't remake the mountains to be all things to all people - they would then cease to be mountains.


The mountains will never cease to be mountains. They were mountains long before any of us were lucky enough to have fun on them and they will still be mountains long after we are all fit enough to enjoy them as we do now.
It is my considered and personal opinion that the Mournes aren't there just for our exclusive use. All of us who have had happy times on the mountains should be grateful for that and for our physical ability to access them. I would LOVE as many other people as possible to, by whatever means, get opportunities to share the joy that the hills have brought me. 

We certainly don't disagree on the joy of the hills, where we disagree is on "by whatever means"
I'm grateful I have the means to get up into the mountains, but were I suddenly deprived of said means, I wouldn't expect the mountains to be modified to compensate.

Yes they will never cease to be mountains by name, my point wasn't meant to be taken quite that specifically. My point was that we can all talk about conservation till we're blue in the face but if we're going to be building gondolas, smooth paths, gift shops, welcome centers and whatever other conveniences then we're altering (and destroying) the original wild character of the mountain we set out to enjoy in the first place.

Mountaineering Ireland's article this quarter "Vulnerable Hills" lays this out quite well, they suggest that upland work should be for the preservation of the mountain only, not to make it easier or safer to climb - and I tend to agree with them.

To be clear I'm not against greater access or uptake of hillwalking - I'm against modifying the character of the environment we all enjoy and have a responsibility to preserve. Leave no trace has little meaning when it comes to chocolate wrappers and orange peels if you're whacking up gondolas and miles of unnecessary path on the other hand.

Fine words ed

[LennyJ1]

As regards the elderly, they'd be better served as LandyLiam says by choosing a route within their capabilities. We can't remake the mountains to be all things to all people - they would then cease to be mountains.


The mountains will never cease to be mountains. They were mountains long before any of us were lucky enough to have fun on them and they will still be mountains long after we are all fit enough to enjoy them as we do now.
It is my considered and personal opinion that the Mournes aren't there just for our exclusive use. All of us who have had happy times on the mountains should be grateful for that and for our physical ability to access them. I would LOVE as many other people as possible to, by whatever means, get opportunities to share the joy that the hills have brought me. 

We certainly don't disagree on the joy of the hills, where we disagree is on "by whatever means"
I'm grateful I have the means to get up into the mountains, but were I suddenly deprived of said means, I wouldn't expect the mountains to be modified to compensate.

Yes they will never cease to be mountains by name, my point wasn't meant to be taken quite that specifically. My point was that we can all talk about conservation till we're blue in the face but if we're going to be building gondolas, smooth paths, gift shops, welcome centers and whatever other conveniences then we're altering (and destroying) the original wild character of the mountain we set out to enjoy in the first place.

Mountaineering Ireland's article this quarter "Vulnerable Hills" lays this out quite well, they suggest that upland work should be for the preservation of the mountain only, not to make it easier or safer to climb - and I tend to agree with them.

To be clear I'm not against greater access or uptake of hillwalking - I'm against modifying the character of the environment we all enjoy and have a responsibility to preserve. Leave no trace has little meaning when it comes to chocolate wrappers and orange peels if you're whacking up gondolas and miles of unnecessary path on the other hand.

I believe there are always going to be pros and cons. I must admit I love the pure nature we have in the mournes however I have also seen how the correct application of a insulation like a gondola can be a great thing. To be honest it would be a eye sore but there is shit loads of mountains in the mournes if you want to get away.

[Doctor Who]

I think this would be the lazy way up the mountains. just sit and relax and walk the rest. the best thing at the moment is walking from the bottom to the top. best way to keep fit. even known I have never been at the very top of donard mountain as I am kinda afraid of heights. I made it to the wall to face my fear though.

some day I will get to the top with no fear.

but anyway if I want to be lazy, I would use that way to get up. but I will never use it.

[LennyJ1]

I think this would be the lazy way up the mountains. just sit and relax and walk the rest. the best thing at the moment is walking from the bottom to the top. best way to keep fit. even known I have never been at the very top of donard mountain as I am kinda afraid of heights. I made it to the wall to face my fear though.

some day I will get to the top with no fear.

but anyway if I want to be lazy, I would use that way to get up. but I will never use it.

I dont think its about lazziness, it more to do with torisim

[spin]

but anyway if I want to be lazy, I would use that way to get up. but I will never use it.
[/quote]

I dont think its about lazziness, it more to do with torisim[/quote]


Ladies and gentlemen - It is my personal view that we need to suspend the judgement on people who may use the gondola. What is fun and hard and a challenge for us at this time is all relative to ourselves. I'm in AWE of the fell runners who literally jump up the hills and fly down them on their fun (and speedy) days out.
We have, I'm sure of it, all been tourists in whatever country/city we have been lucky enough to visit/explore and have respected it within our own values. I'm sure you'll concur that as it is, not every hiker respects the Mournes (or other hills) as we would like them to, we've all seen discarded banana skins, apples cores, high sugar food wrappers, cigarette butts, glass and plastic bottles etc etc on high and low Mournes.
There are so many access routes to the Mournes and more than just the route to Donard forest so there is plenty to go around. If you don't like the gondola - don't use it or anything associated with it. Be gracious and be happy to let others share the beauty of the Mournes that we are lucky to be able enjoy .

[Ed]

Laziness couldn't be further from my consideration on it. I'm not prone to any form of hiker snobbery, I'm not good enough at it for that.
My viewpoint is only framed around conservation vs convenience - and which we should be putting first.
You were right when you said none of us own the hills exclusively. I'd go one further and say this entire generation collectively does not own the hills exclusively, nor does the next, or the following after that.
I know there are definitely benefits to the proposal, I'm just of the viewpoint that we need to be careful not to be overindulgent in our stewardship of the hills and not put convenience before conservation, if we want to let the countless generations which follow us enjoy the same wild experience we have of the Mournes.
I'm not advocating keeping the Mournes to hardcore hikers only - and I'm only restating my viewpoint to be sure it isn't mis-framed in that context. Equal access for every human being may seem like a harmless notion on the face of it, when considered from the point of view of our generation, but future generations may not thank us for it.
So just to be sure, my point isn't one of anti-laziness or exclusivity, it's of convenience vs conservation and not putting ourselves first in too many decisions regarding the hills.
The Gondola might turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread - but a trend of basing upland work off convenience and safety, rather than conservation, isn't a way of thinking we'd want to spread too much.

[Ed]

For anyone who's interested, Mountaineering Ireland's draft proposal of upland path management guidelines is available here and is worth a read:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14035139/Mountaineering%20Ireland%20Path%20Management.pdf

[ChuckMcB]

Interesting read Aragorn, here's the final draft: http://www.mountaineering.ie/documentbank/uploads/upland%20path%20principles.pdf

[Rugged Track]

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