Northern Ireland Outdoors Forum - Hiking, camping and more
General => General Chat => Topic started by: sjh1 on June 22, 2013
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Judging from the numerous (and some slightly hostile) responses to my posts on the spelling 'craic' there is some interest in the subject, so I've decided to set out a few arguments here. Also Aragorn mentioned "bizarro handwringing over semantics" in the Rewilding thread which has set me off again!
'Crack' meaning good chat, jokes, banter etc. is an old northern English and lowland Scots word dating from the 1700s at least. It is not an Irish Gaelic word. It was always spelled 'crack' up until the late 1960s. Until that time in Ireland it was mostly (or only?) heard in Ulster, probably symptomatic of our close historical dialect links with Scotland. Here too it was always spelled 'crack'.
In the latter half of the 20th century use of the word spread into the south of Ireland where in Irish language contexts it began to be spelled 'craic'. Perfectly acceptable. However from the 1990s the spelling 'craic' started to creep into English writing and by the 2010s it seems to have totally displaced the original spelling. My point is that there is no need to spell the word 'craic' when writing in English.
More details in the history section of this well sourced wikipedia article ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craic)
'A Concise Ulster Dictionary' (a great resource, available here http://www.amazon.co.uk/Concise-Ulster-Dictionary-Caroline-Macafee/dp/0198600593 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Concise-Ulster-Dictionary-Caroline-Macafee/dp/0198600593)) published in 1996 states,
crack noun 1 talk, gossip, chat; a conversation, a chat; a good story or joke. 2 the crack news, gossip. 3 good, etc crack of a person good etc. company ... [Also borrowed into Irish as craic].
Interestingly modern Ulster-Scots writers often spell it 'crek' (source: James Fenton 'The Hamely Tongue') using a phonetic spelling based largely on north Antrim pronunciation. However there is no need for either the 'crek' or 'craic' spellings when writing in English.
This thread has more discussion and details, http://wordoriginsorg.yuku.com/topic/4048#.UcWItfnVCSo (http://wordoriginsorg.yuku.com/topic/4048#.UcWItfnVCSo)
I empathise with one of the posters who states, "I am absolutely delighted to hear this, craic looks like an Irish spelling, but it does not exist in the actual language.
I have thought this for ages, but on the few occasions I have voiced my opnion (in Ireland) I have been laughed out of court."
Write it 'craic' if you like but at least now you can't plead ignorance!
... Cue the 'craicin', 'craicer post' nonsense...
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heh.
Bizarro handwringing over semantics was a reference to the usual quality of writing in the Guardian - not to yourself.
Perhaps we can have an equally lively debate on the colloquialism that is the chill pill?
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Screw it, I'll bite, if for no other reason than the fact that I resent the implication that the people on this forum are ignorant. Ignorance != Apathy, people know where the word comes from, they just know it doesn't matter.
Far be it from me to lecture a language expert, but it was always my belief that a word does not have to originate in a given language to be used as such. Such word appropriation is commonly found in anglicised French words for example. I don't see why words can't be gaelicised, just as they are adopted by other languages.
The usage of a given word by society as a whole has far more bearing on its eventual accepted meaning then the erudite protestations of those with an axe to grind. In light of that I'd imagine your wet lipped rage to be somewhat futile, in addition to being misplaced (see post in the rewilding thread)
I'm sure the long transition from olde English to modern English had its share of detractors, regularly engaging in strident protestation at the deterioration of their beloved language by those around them. In the end it didn't make a lot of difference though so far as I can tell.
So - we've established that while you are factually correct on the origin of the word - it still has little bearing on whether or not it can be used in the manner preferred by those on the forum.
A little bit on emotional intelligence - people don't like it to be implied that they're stupid - especially when it comes to something minor, pedantic and irrelevant from any pragmatic perspective.
If you've been the subject of any jocular derision, it's a reaction based on the above.
To use another phrase locals are quite fond of "Nobody likes a smartarse"
My advice is to just drop this before you're any more beloved than you already are.
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Totally agree with Aragorn
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Right that's it, I'm starting a new thread on the crack/craic debate (... and I really haven't got the time for it).
Heh. Made time to continue the crusade I see!
I wouldn't worry about it, our language is going to be so completely different in 50years or less - with text speak becoming the norm, we will soon be discussing the proper use of 'lol' and 'brb' (see George Orwells 1984).
Nit picking over these words does nothing but give us more ammo and lots of entertainment.
In the end, I don't care where the word comes from - I will continue to spell the word with an 'ai'.
"Good Craic" - is a fun time, "Good Crack!" Is a compliment to ones buttocks.
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In the end, I don't care where the word comes from - I will continue to spell the word with an 'ai'.
"Good Craic" - is a fun time, "Good Crack!" Is a compliment to ones buttocks.
Or a compliment on the quality of one's freebase smoked cocaine
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Screw it, I'll bite, if for no other reason than the fact that I resent the implication that the people on this forum are ignorant. Ignorance != Apathy, people know where the word comes from, they just know it doesn't matter.
Totally unrelated to the post but had to comment to say that ignorant/ignorance etc is perhaps one of my favorite words to use simply for how it has changed it's meaning in modern society. I use it as per the dictionary definition and so have no problems calling someone ignorant, it is after all not a slander on their character nor a derogatory statement. But the looks you get of the politically correct crowd and the abuse from the rest who are brave enough to speak their minds always is worth the effort. ;D
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Screw it, I'll bite, if for no other reason than the fact that I resent the implication that the people on this forum are ignorant. Ignorance != Apathy, people know where the word comes from, they just know it doesn't matter.
Totally unrelated to the post but had to comment to say that ignorant/ignorance etc is perhaps one of my favorite words to use simply for how it has changed it's meaning in modern society. I use it as per the dictionary definition and so have no problems calling someone ignorant, it is after all not a slander on their character nor a derogatory statement. But the looks you get of the politically correct crowd and the abuse from the rest who are brave enough to speak their minds always is worth the effort. ;D
I dunno mate. To me being called ignorant I.e unknowing is a worse insult than the other slang meaning of "rudeness"
you're right though its quite a good example
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Though we have to be ignorant otherwise we can't learn
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That is true, we are all ignorant of something. in general though people don't react well to it being pointed out unless there's a half decent point in doing so.
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was if you I had that drunken convo with about "how's she cuttin" or was that someone else?
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last word, last word
LIDL have some tents, solar powered torches and wetsuits in stock at the minute
last word, last word
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/23/dysebetu.jpg)
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Ha its weird how people in this country get so up tight about stupid things like language. I once got dumped by a wee girl because I wrote 'crack' instead of 'craic' in a text to her! Just for the record I aint bothered what way its spelt. As the great Ali G once asked: 'some of de problems in Ireland, people say maybe 'cos the irish is always up fer de craic?'
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/23/dysebetu.jpg)
Brilliant!
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Cue the 'craicin', 'craicer post' nonsense...
It's not nonsense, the OP is nonsense. Words change, no need to get upset.
Prime example: Everyone has heard of "Mayday, Mayday..."; it's actually from the French "m'aidez" - meaning 'help me'. It sounds the same yet we have decided to steal the word and re-spell it.
Then there is colour and color, thanks to our American brothers.
Being a language expert just means bring in-tune with the way language is set up 'at-the-minute'. It was all different 100 years ago, and it will all be different in 100 years time. The idea that the Irish 'stole' the word and renamed it is probably correct, but what a nice world it would be if all we stole was words.
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:)
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Pass the crack
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:)
It's gold! I can't ignore gold can I?! :D
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So sjh1 what exactly is ur job title?. Is correcting grammar like this how you fill your day?..?
You are an ignoramus. Get that in your pipe and smoke it. I will continue to use our local slang because I can. Ill stop there.
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WOW peeps just had a read at this treat and im glad i dont understand it by the looks of things. Being uneducated has its good points lol
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WOW peeps just had a read at this treat and im glad i dont understand it by the looks of things. Being uneducated has its good points lol
In short, 'Britain' came up with the word 'crack' meaning good fun. The Irish like to spell it 'craic'.
Also no-one cares.
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I did not suggest anybody was stupid. I suggested they were ignorant of facts. Not the same thing at all. Admittedly I might well have been wrong and lots of people on here might already have known about the word's origins.
I don't want to be beloved by anybody on here, thanks! I'm trying to have a debate about an issue that interests me and which raised some responses on another thread. I think it was rude of me to hijack that thread and I've apologised for that. I don't mean any personal insult to anybody and I don't have an axe to grind. I am not a language expert but I do have a strong interest in the subject.
I hope everybody does continue to use all our local slang and dialect, I love to hear it. That Concise Ulster Dictionary is a really good reference, all sourced from years of archives at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum and compiled by Dr. Caroline Macafee. For the wider English-language throughout Ireland A Dictionary of Hiberno-English by Terence Patrick Dolan is very good and has a lot of words we don't use up here (as well as many we do).
Nobody pointed out the mistake in my first post (obviously because nobody is interested). In his dictionary of Ulster-Scots James Fenton actually writes crack as, "crak (-ah-) ... (Also locally creck)". The crak (-ah-) spelling indicates the long 'a' sound in some north Antrim speech, it's usually pronounced more like cra-ak up there.
I very much like the wee cartoon and also the Vic Reeves catchphrase. I'll be saying, "You just wouldn't let it lie!" all day now.
Remember if you're not interested there is no need to read or reply to this thread.
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it was always my belief that a word does not have to originate in a given language to be used as such. Such word appropriation is commonly found in anglicised French words for example. I don't see why words can't be gaelicised, just as they are adopted by other languages.
So - we've established that while you are factually correct on the origin of the word - it still has little bearing on whether or not it can be used in the manner preferred by those on the forum.
To use another phrase locals are quite fond of "Nobody likes a smartarse"
A few further points...
Of course words are borrowed between languages. There are countless examples. However this is a strange case where a word was borrowed into one language then back into the original language in its new form.
People can (and will) spell words whatever way they want on this forum and elsewhere. Indeed 'craic' looks like becoming the accepted English spelling. I just thought that some people might like to know that the old spelling 'crack' is the original historical spelling and thus actually more legitimate. For a start that -ic at the end makes no sense in English, it looks like it should rhyme with lake. Again, maybe most people knew this already and just didn't care ... or they wanted to distinguish between fun, drugs and arses which is very reasonable I suppose!
It was actually 'craicin' that started me off. Possibly this spelling too is on its way to becoming standard English but I hope not.
Re. "Nobody likes a smartarse" that seems such a Norn Iron one. I read somewhere that we're the only place in the world where parents rebuke their children by telling them to, "Stop being smart!" ... Probably used worldwide though to be fair.
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I'd imagine those who poke fun at the NI phrase aren't aware of the difference between being smart and being a smartarse. The former is certainly a desirable trait, but the latter is definitely something to rebuke.
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I hope everybody does continue to use all our local slang and dialect, I love to hear it. That Concise Ulster Dictionary is a really good reference, all sourced from years of archives at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum and compiled by Dr. Caroline Macafee.
Thats seems a great Dictionary, would love to look and have a laugh at that. :)
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I hope everybody does continue to use all our local slang and dialect, I love to hear it. That Concise Ulster Dictionary is a really good reference, all sourced from years of archives at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum and compiled by Dr. Caroline Macafee.
Thats seems a great Dictionary, would love to look and have a laugh at that. :)
It is very good but a bit academic. For a laugh try the old John Pepper books, used to love them when I was younger.
See here ... http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/john+pepper/john+peppers+complete+norn+iron+haunbook/4572284/ (http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/john+pepper/john+peppers+complete+norn+iron+haunbook/4572284/)
I could be wrong but I suspect John Pepper (actually a pseudonym, I can't remember his real name) was the first to write 'Norn Iron' in print. See it so often now online and elsewhere.
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Sweet thanks sjh1, i'd like to read that.
many thanks wolf
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I've weighed in once before on this topic, so this my last time.
I recognise the word "craic".
The word "crack" to me is either a fault/break in a solid object, or some sort of drug.
I've honestly never seen the word crack used instead of craic, so that's the current state of the language for me. I don't read much, now that the kids keep me busy though.
Anyway, happy debating everyone.
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lol just when you thought the fire was dead, along comes fair weather camper with his jerrican full of unleaded ;-)
I've had my fill of argument lately. Mostly from trolling the handwringers at guardian hq though. Don't see much disagreement here.
"Goretex is better damn you, you Rab wearing fool!"
"Shut it Berghaus, up yours Mountain Equipment!"
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Yeah sorry. Just ignore me. :-X
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LMAO, is that part of the book
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I've weighed in once before on this topic, so this my last time.
I recognise the word "craic".
The word "crack" to me is either a fault/break in a solid object, or some sort of drug.
I've honestly never seen the word crack used instead of craic, so that's the current state of the language for me. I don't read much, now that the kids keep me busy though.
Anyway, happy debating everyone.
Fair enough. I used to only see it written 'crack' but it is now getting rarer, yes. On pub billboards, newspaper headlines, online forums etc. 'craic' is near ubiquitous now. But all those sources I mentioned only spell it 'crack' ... even the recent Hiberno-English Dictionary and aul John Pepper.
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Only messin Camper everyone's entitled to their say.
I wouldn't be surprised Wolf if people had fights over gear. Not after hearing about the aggressive mindset that sets in when people are exposed to extreme cold. Rusty was telling me Ranulph fiennes at one point was getting random murderous thoughts during a really cold exped.
All seems to be a good source of humour though.
Last time I was out bivvying, I dreamt I had left my sleeping bag compression sack sitting out, and that LandyLiam had taken it and filled it with dirt, drew a smiley face on a rock - called it Robbie and placed it inside.
I was mid flipout when I woke up
Most hilarious dream I've had in a while
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lol, is this like who is better Bear Gyrils or Ray Mears. Something that is to hard to get to the bottom off lol
Its only a laugh hehe
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lol, is this like who is better Bear Gyrils or Ray Mears. Something that is to hard to get to the bottom off lol
Its only a laugh hehe
Ray Mears. Without a doubt.
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lol, i love both. I think they are chalk and cheese Ray is more tuned to nature and Bear is an adrenaline junkie. To be honest i just love all them survivor programes ;D
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Option 3 - Les Stroud!
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Option 3 - Les Stroud!
You just like an argument!
I will need evidence and sources re. Les Stroud.
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I love how Stroud carries his own gear and his support crew only monitor him from a distance.
It definitely slows him down though, putting cameras down, walking away, walking towards them etc.
I thoroughly enjoy Ray Mears and Bear Grylls (Mears moreso) - but Stroud does get less help and it kinda makes you feel closer to the experience while watching.
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Option 1: Bear
Option 2: Ray
Option 3: Led Strond
Option 4: Mors Kochanski
Option 5: Ed Stafford
Option 6: Cody Lundin, Dave Canterbury
Option 7: Tom Hanks & Wiston
Ill Vote Bear as i'm adrenaline junkie ;D
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I like Option 6 but will have to keep an eye out for this Stroud guy.
Edit: Option 7 now ... Hanks and WILSON!
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Last time I was out bivvying, I dreamt I had left my sleeping bag compression sack sitting out, and that LandyLiam had taken it and filled it with dirt, drew a smiley face on a rock - called it Robbie and placed it inside.
Dreaming about me again? bet your bivvy bag was clammy that night 8)
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You were explaining to me at great length at why it was unjust for robbie the rock to sit out in the rain - he needed the shelter of the drybag and the muck to feel at home.
I woke up raging, actually went to clean out the bag when I woke up lol
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Option 1: Bear
Option 2: Ray
Option 3: Led Strond
Option 4: Mors Kochanski
Option 5: Ed Stafford
Option 6: Cody Lundin, Dave Canterbury
Option 7: Tom Hanks & Wiston
Ill Vote Bear as i'm adrenaline junkie ;D
Well my 8 year old says you know nothing. You haven't even included Steve Backshall on the list!
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Your right whoRya, Steve Backshall i love that guy to !!!
lol, well spotted mate ;)
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You were explaining to me at great length at why it was unjust for robbie the rock to sit out in the rain - he needed the shelter of the drybag and the muck to feel at home.
I woke up raging, actually went to clean out the bag when I woke up lol
it was no dream :-*
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You were explaining to me at great length at why it was unjust for robbie the rock to sit out in the rain - he needed the shelter of the drybag and the muck to feel at home.
I woke up raging, actually went to clean out the bag when I woke up lol
it was no dream :-*
Oh noes!
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You were explaining to me at great length at why it was unjust for robbie the rock to sit out in the rain - he needed the shelter of the drybag and the muck to feel at home.
I woke up raging, actually went to clean out the bag when I woke up lol
it was no dream :-*
Welcome to the forum Robbie!! Lol
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Thought this was quite apt