Northern Ireland Outdoors Forum - Hiking, camping and more
General => General Chat => Topic started by: Shan Doan on September 06, 2012
-
This sign is in the Leitrim Lodge Picnic Area in the western Mournes. There’s a similar sign (and others) placed arguably too far up the lane from the car park on the Sandbank Road beside Hen Mountain.
In fact, there are a few signs about this ‘estate’. If my memory serves me right one of them warns against allowing “livestick” to graze. I got the feeling if I stood still long enough a trustee would nail a sign on me.
(http://www.thelight-tightbox.info/post/batty.jpg)
I’m posting this in case anyone new to the western Mournes plans to go walking with a dog, or innocently hike through to this area from elsewhere.
No one would belittle landowners’ and farmers’ distress caused by sheep-worrying – I’ve seen the results. But these days having the dog along for company in the mountains is more important to me than sheep. I wonder what the documented sheep-worrying stats actually are for the entire Mournes area and how they compare to all the responsible dog-walking that goes on each year without incident.
Maybe I’m a townie talking rubbish, but why are free-range sheep allowed up OUR popular mountain ranges in the first place? Why aren't they fenced-in out of our way on farmer’s land below? We understand land access issues (and our disputed right to roam), but maybe sheep-management is at the root of the problem, not just careless dog-walkers?
Anyway, later this month I’m hoping to get to Binnian from Carrick Little car park, so if anybody knows about outright ‘bans’ on dogs there – or anywhere else – please let us all know. Many thanks.
http://www.newryandmourne.gov.uk/environment/health/attacksonlivestock.aspx
-
Maybe I’m a townie talking rubbish, but why are free-range sheep allowed up OUR popular mountain ranges in the first place? Why aren't they fenced-in out of our way on farmer’s land below? We understand land access issues (and our disputed right to roam), but maybe sheep-management is at the root of the problem, not just careless dog-walkers?
Shan I know why you may get angry about such things. As a responsible dog walker you feel the restrictions are unnecessary. I take the same view about camping on NT land - you'll not even know I was there so what is the problem?
You seem to misunderstand a few fundamental things however.
They aren't "OUR mountains".
Those hills you refer to are effectively the farmer's land (not just the bits down low). Well without knowing who the parties are it is impossible to know for sure. In any case they are private land. If the farmer is the tennant/has grazing rights, he has more of a right to the land than us walkers.
There is no dispute over the right to roam - there isn't a right to roam!. We are just tolerated.
I dare say the farmers may agree about the townie bit when judging many of us, are they correct in some cases?
-
I take your point and it's well made. They're not OUR mountains. Hmmm... I understand about the lower areas and I very much appreciate land access. I'm living and learning still, but I don't quite understand.
I don't know enough for sure, though I'm not angry as such about it. I suppose when I'm right up there with my wee dog, well off the lower slopes, in a way I'm having to be responsible for animals that others own and are fully responsible for. Doesn't quite add up fairly to me. But who said life's fair.
::)
In some ways I wonder if these days we need a radical rethink somewhere down the line. I'd like to see sheep out of my way in secure fields and off the mountains altogether. And no litter, and no damage to walls and responsible camping, etc. Dream on!
Anyway, that's the way it is. The main point is that other folk here find out before they travel far to this area and then need a plan B.
:)
-
Inside the Mourne Wall is owned by the Water Board and (to date) they don't seem to have any clear policy on walking/camping/dogs. Outside the wall the land is owned by a variety of private owners, forestry commission and the National Trust, all of whom can and do enforce a variety of policies, for instance in all the forests owned by the commission (wild) camping is explicitly banned and anywhere that it is tolerated it is only because they do not enforce the rules, not because it's actually allowed. I am not aware of a single forest in Northern Ireland in which wild camping is allowed.
The inner Mournes are more relaxed but only really because more of the land is not in the hands of private owners because the area inside the Mourne Wall is huge. You would be fine from Carrick Little into the Binnian area because there is only a farmers lane to traverse to get you to the wall and dogs are fine (although Carrick Plant Hire has a doberman that runs about but it seems friendly).
I'd also agree with your sentiment "They're not OUR mountains. Hmmm..." but that's probably a potentially argumentative discussion for another day, maybe in the National Park thread :D
-
You'll find this Mournes Access Study (http://www.sportni.net/NR/rdonlyres/1C737C60-0268-4071-AD0C-198E7016165F/0/Mournes_Access_Study.pdf) interesting reading. The maps give a good illustration of land ownership and PROW (public rights of way), or the lack thereof!
What we enjoy for the most part is permissive access. This seems to cover a large area. That is why I take heed of the areas where signs specifically exclude access e.g. the area north of the Mourne Way around Meelmore and Meelbeg or the farmland that has to be bypassed when approaching from Attical up Sandy Brae.
It seems like there is a lack of formal agreement between interested parties. That can be an advantage also. As long as you are responsible ignorance can be bliss.
Formalisation could have the effect of specifically precluding access to some areas. There are some landowners who I suspect don't wish anyone on their land at all, there are also some recreational users who show complete disregard towards the rights of private landowners not to expect damage to their property.
In the meantime I'll just keep my head down and move fast (ish) 8)
-
They aren't "OUR mountains".
Those hills you refer to are effectively the farmer's land (not just the bits down low). Well without knowing who the parties are it is impossible to know for sure. In any case they are private land. If the farmer is the tennant/has grazing rights, he has more of a right to the land than us walkers.
WhoRya is correct. When he say they are not "Our Mountains", it it is Commonages Lands which are lands which are farmed by a group of farmers. So it is open to all landownders who have property around a mountainous area and we, as hillwalkers, are trespassers.
Unfortunately it takes a small number of dog owners and hillwalkers to spoil it for the rest of us. I have seen dog owners let their dogs run after sheep and the dog owner just laugh. They think it is funny. I have seen hillwalkers just walking through a flock of sheep thereby scattering them all over the place and undoing the what took the farmer time to get their flock together. There are no winners in this. There are also notices going up around the Cooley Mountains. Farmers there have reacted very angryly at dog owners, hillwalkers and mountain bikers. I have had meetings with then to assure the them the we club hillwalkers are responsible and we don't take dogs on the hills. I have been educated recently with my involvement with the UFRC (Ulster Federation of Rambling Clubs) about the rights/laws fro us hillwalkers/Mountaineers/Geocachers etc. We don't have right s to be on the hillside unless we have been given permmission to be there.
Here is the UFRC policy document policy. It is a long read...
http://www.ufrc-online.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Access.pdf
-
RedLeader, thanks very much for the info about the Binnian area. I’ve been trying to pick a Mournes area to go to with the dog very regularly and this is probably it. It has precious sentimental memories for me too. I’ll follow “whoRya’s” example: “I'll just keep my head down and move fast (ish)”!
I think my opinions and ‘thinking out loud’ have taken the thread away from where we can’t walk dogs because of 'bans'. I’m interested too in how these farmers manage their sheep, even up the higher mountains where in my opinion I shouldn’t need to concern myself with them.
Daithi2004, thanks for the PDF file. I’ve saved it, read it through and will again. The efforts being made are very important for us all. Worth reading. I was interested in the opinion you shared in the above post: “I have had meetings with them to assure them that we club hillwalkers are responsible and we don't take dogs on the hills.”
Maybe it’s just the way you’ve worded it, if so I apologise. But in this thread it could be taken to imply dog-walking in the mountains where there are sheep is in itself irresponsible. At best is this not just a matter of opinion? It’s the last thing anyone should be telling landowners and sheep farmers.
In fact not keeping dogs under “strict control” is what’s irresponsible. Implying anything else may encourage more dramatic red signs about the place. The dim-witted dog-walkers you mention are a disgrace and get us all a bad name. We have folk like this close by who are tearing up rabbits for ‘sport’ at night.
My dog is trained to stop when I do and I’m very cautious about when to let him off the lead. It’s not wise to fully trust any dog so I keep my eyes peeled for sheep, but I sure do wish I didn’t have to!
Thanks again.
:)
-
You are all being very diplomatic about this, not that that is a bad thing at all, just interesting when I read it and think differently.
I could give you a completely different opinion and say that it is YOUR mountain. You were born on this earth just like them, why is it not yours too?
Every inch of this earth is yours all the land and all the sea
Imagine no restrictions but the climate and the weather
-
The same reason someone can't stroll into your living room and watch your TV uninvited.
I could give you a completely different opinion and say that it is YOUR mountain. You were born on this earth just like them, why is it not yours too?
Every inch of this earth is yours all the land and all the sea
Imagine no restrictions but the climate and the weather
-
Well they can. Just depends on how much they want to, no?
-
True but you can assume I meant legally. If we're not talking about staying within the law then this thread would be a bit redundant.
Well they can. Just depends on how much they want to, no?
-
Shan, the only reason farmers care about dogs on their land is because of either them chasing the sheep away or injuring them.
Farmers themselves use dogs to move the sheep so its not the dog walking they are trying to prevent its just the possibility of injury.
Don't be thinking that if you walk your dog up a hill there will be a farmer wearing a tweed hat taking shots at you. It just won't happen. I'd never worry, your being responsible and you know yourself your dog isn't going to go hunt sheep, carry on walking it and enjoy yourself.
-
True, and they'll have no problem with dogs on leads to so if you see a grumpy red faced farmer in the distance pop the pup on a lead and everyone'll be happy :)
Shan, the only reason farmers care about dogs on their land is because of either them chasing the sheep away or injuring them.
Farmers themselves use dogs to move the sheep so its not the dog walking they are trying to prevent its just the possibility of injury.
Don't be thinking that if you walk your dog up a hill there will be a farmer wearing a tweed hat taking shots at you. It just won't happen. I'd never worry, your being responsible and you know yourself your dog isn't going to go hunt sheep, carry on walking it and enjoy yourself.
-
Shan, unfortunately I maybe giving the impression that all dog owners are irresponsible. I know a lot are very responsible when it come to their dogs. It is the minority that spoils it. Just like so call hillwalker who dump their rubbish or showing lack of respect to farmers because they (the hillwalker) think they have the god given right to be there. Not true, legally. I think it is good to talk about this issue on this forum. I am all for responsible dog owners leading the way and showing the irresponsible ones the correct way. Unfortunately farmers have told me a different story at that particular meeting and I have seen it for myself. I have noticed since that meeting, signs went up all over the Cooleys and now I notice it going up on the Mournes, Wicklow and other mountainous areas. The area that you were talking about ie Carricklittle, I think there are signs there a well. I noticed it on one of my facebook friends. I think the sign is just up from the car park. I am open to correction. The only reason I say that is, his photos after this one, are of him going up Binnian. There are a lot of sheep farmers around that area.
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/387086_478680298819432_1370774344_n.jpg)
-
I think it is good to talk about this issue on this forum.
I agree. Can you tell me what it is that the farmers have the issue with? I bet its to do with the sheep being in harm or distressed, not with someone walking on their land?
Not true, legally.
That word legally is the key word isn't it. Its someone shouting one law and someone else responding by shouting its their right (to roam).
The key word is also reflected in the sign pictured above.
You may receive a fine...
The court may...
You may be ordered
Its not something that will absolutely positively happen to you if your sitting on a summit having lunch and you decide to let the dog off the lead for 5 minutes.
-
The reason why farmers don't want dogs on their land is because if their sheep are hurt or injured, that is money lost. It is their livelihood. Agriculture is doing well in this recession and keeping the economy going. NI and ROI depend on agriculture. (My opinion)
As regards the legality, we don't have the right to roam in this country. The UFRC are trying to get the by 1987 Occupiers’ Liability legislation changed so that there is a third type of user, that is the Recreational User. At the moment there is the person with permission to walk on the land and the trespasser. Mind you this legislation is to do with duty of care.
At the end of the day, the majority of the farming community allow us walkers to walk the mountains without any bother. Thankfully I have never had any trouble. I do respect that I am on private property.
-
.....
Anyway, later this month I’m hoping to get to Binnian from Carrick Little car park, so if anybody knows about outright ‘bans’ on dogs there – or anywhere else – please let us all know. Many thanks.
http://www.newryandmourne.gov.uk/environment/health/attacksonlivestock.aspx
As regards the picture of the No Dog sign which I put up on a previous post, this was taken on the way up the Carricklittle Track. It is on one of the gates.
-
Sitting having our lunch yesterday in the pot of Legawherry when I heard barking coming from behind,a lone hiker above had a terrier dog which was chasing sheep towards the very dangerous granite rock formations,a number of sheep tumbled over but then ran on,being a dog owner myself,it annoys me that some twats wreck it for everyone,if you can't control your dog,then keep it on the lead all the time.
-
Not wanting to hijack the thread (said he hijacking the thread) but I'd really prefer it of people kept their dogs at least close by, though not necessarily on a lead.
I'm not a dog person and while I'm not terminally afraid of mans best friend, they do sometimes make me nervous. So when a big dog comes bounding along, the owner might know that the dog is friendly but a stranger doesn't. More annoying, I was trying to cook a bit of bacon on Saturday morning in a forest and lab appeared and tortured us sniffing round our stuff with the owner not to be seen. Worrying sheep is one thing but worrying bacon is absolutely not on ;)
-
I was trying to cook a bit of bacon on Saturday morning in a forest and lab appeared and tortured us sniffing round our stuff with the owner not to be seen. Worrying sheep is one thing but worrying bacon is absolutely not on
that reminds me of the christmas camp and the dog stealing lennys breakfast :D
-
I was trying to cook a bit of bacon on Saturday morning in a forest and lab appeared and tortured us sniffing round our stuff with the owner not to be seen. Worrying sheep is one thing but worrying bacon is absolutely not on
that reminds me of the christmas camp and the dog stealing lennys breakfast :D
I'll have to correct you and break the bad news that it was even worse because it was the Christmas cake it stole.
-
At the binnian camp i glanced outside the tent to see a fox making off with Dowsers birthday cake ;D