Northern Ireland Outdoors Forum - Hiking, camping and more
Information => Outdoor News and Events => Topic started by: admin on June 16, 2011
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The Forestry Service has opened a consultation on proposed revisions to the byelaws that apply to their land. The byelaws are already pretty draconian with regard to restrictions on what you are permitted to do on forestry land but the new changes specifically ban being in one of their forests between sunset and sunrise.
The Forestry Act (NI) 2010 grants a public right of pedestrian access to forestry land, but this is of course subject to the Byelaws. Byelaw 5 excludes access between sunset and sunrise, and also allows the Department to exclude or restrict the Public’s right of access to any part of the forestry land. Sometimes we will have to do this for health and safety, plant health, environmental or other reasons.
It is an offence to contravene any provision of these byelaws, and any person committing such an offence is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, and in the case of a continuing oanffence, to a further fine not exceeding one-tenth of level 3 on the standard scale in respect of each day during which the offence is continued after conviction.
In essence, if these changes are allowed to pass then you will be subject to a fine for being in any Forestry Commission operated forests after dark. As a general rule of thumb, unless a forest is privately owned then it is covered by the Forestry Commission so that applies to the bulk of Northern Ireland forests. At very least this would mean you would be fined for walking your dog / allowing your children to play in late afternoon in the winter as the sun would have set. You would also not be able to access the Mournes from Newcastle any time after sunset as the only routes in are all through Forestry land.
As a group, we feel that we are already heavily restricted by draconian and unbureaucratic laws covering how we are allowed to enjoy ourselves on our own tax funded public land. Access is already severely restricted and wild camping is largely outlawed. This change would now mean that we can't even enjoy large areas of Northern Ireland in the evenings for any reason. We appreciate that small elements of the populace can cause problems in forests but that seems to be a poor reason to have a blanket ban and that education and sensible enforcement of practical and fair laws are the only ways to protect our open spaces for legitimate use.
Here are a few thoughts on what these changes will mean:
* The sun sets at 4pm in winter so you wouldn't be allowed in a forest in late afternoon for any legitimate reason, even to walk your dog or let the children play.
* Access to the Mournes would be severely restricted as the main, easiest routes in/out are from Newcastle through forests. Restricting access to the Mournes is foolish as they are a huge tourist attraction.
* Restricting access to forests will hinder attempts to encourage young people to spend time constructively outside.
* Banning all activities after sunset is far too draconian. If there is a problem activity that needs curtailed then it should be targeted directly.
* The government are continually complaining about how children don't get enough exercise. What do you expect if you keep them penned in towns and ban them from public places in the evenings.
* Everyone complains about kids hanging around the streets at night. Where else are they supposed to go when places like the tax funded public forests are so heavily restricted.
* These are public forests and we have a basic right to use them sensibly at any time. Full stop!
What do we suggest?
We appreciate that complaining about change without constructive suggestion is pointless so this is what we recommend. Don't restrict access, open it! Allow people to use forests when they want for whatever they want. Humans are outdoors animals, we aren't designed to sit at desks, we're designed to be upright and outside in the fresh air. Corralling people in urban areas just causes stress and strain and that's one of the reasons youths cause so much trouble - boredom. Kids are better camping in a forest learning to cook and live outdoors than they are hanging around your street corner. Just as in all areas of life, they just need educated in how to be responsible.
Will opening access stop malicious kids lighting fires - probably not. Will banning people from forests stop malicious fires - obviously not. Do you think someone willing to start a fire that could endanger lives is worried about a potential fine? What are the chances that a ranger would have any success even trying to get details to enforce the fine. However, with open access and forests full of people the community helps solve these problems. The Government can't afford to have the forests adequately patrolled but when they are heavily used by local folk then it's much harder for people to cause trouble when the concerned public are around to keep watch. However, when the forests are empty of the people who use the area sensibly the miscreant element will be able to run riot and the threat of fines wont stop them.
Groups like NI-Wild regularly help clean and clear outdoors spaces and you can always guarantee that everywhere we go we bring more rubbish home than we create ourselves. Once you ban us from the forests we wont be there to help maintain them and you can be absolutely sure that we wont be doing any conservation work in forests to which we are not allowed access. The government might manage to make some money in fines but it wont even be close to covering the cost of the thousands of local volunteers they usually have helping out.
The bottom line is blanket bans are always a bad idea and politicians are incredibly lazy to make perfectly reasonable behaviour illegal because they can't be bothered finding a better solution! I have a son and I'm ashamed that in Northern Ireland I can't legally take him to the woods and teach him how to live outdoors the same way my Father taught me.
Please contact the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development (DARD) to voice your concerns on this topic. If the public does not react then this byelaw will pass automatically - if you sit back and hope that other people react to this then you will be part of the reason that we can't use our own forests any more!
What can you do?
Facebook
Please go here and "Like" this campaign. Please encourage all your friends to do the same. Facebooks is big these days and campaigns can get some serious traction!
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fight-fining-us-for-being-in-a-forest-after-dark-in-Northern-Ireland/136767126399001 (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fight-fining-us-for-being-in-a-forest-after-dark-in-Northern-Ireland/136767126399001/)
Press Contact:
Please contact your local newspaper and point them to this post, some press coverage would be very helpful.
Governmental Contact
The only way this will change is if plenty of people contact those in power that are making these decisions.
Please contact these people:
Jan Davidson (jan.davidson@dardni.gov.uk) who is the the official contact for the consultation.
Please also contact Michelle O'Neill (michelle.oneill@mla.niassembly.gov.uk) who is the DARD Minister.
Also contacting your own MP is a great idea - the more people we complain to, the higher likelihood of us making a difference (you can find your MP here http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/members/constmap_res.htm (http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/members/constmap_res.htm)).
Here is a sample letter you can send or email (thanks to http://www.mtbrider.com (http://www.mtbrider.com)). Obviously replace the {} with your own comment!
Jan Davidson
Department of Agriculture and Rural Development
Policy & Legislation Branch, Forest Service
Room 20
Dundonald House
Upper Newtownards Road
Ballymiscaw
Belfast BT4 3SB
Dear Jan,
Consultation on Forestry Land Byelaws.
I am writing in response to calls for views on the above consultation, and have comments as follows:
Byelaw 5 (1) The right of access granted under section 31(1) of the Act is excluded between sunset and sunrise.
{insert comments here}
I trust these comments will be useful to the Department as part of the wider consultation, and I look forward to the Department’s response.
Yours sincerely,
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Sources:
http://www.dardni.gov.uk/forestservice/microsoft_word_-_forestry_land_byelaws__northern_ireland__2011.pdf (http://www.dardni.gov.uk/forestservice/microsoft_word_-_forestry_land_byelaws__northern_ireland__2011.pdf)
http://www.dardni.gov.uk/forestservice/letter-byelaws.pdf (http://www.dardni.gov.uk/forestservice/letter-byelaws.pdf)
Thanks to MTBRider who were one of the first to publicise this.
http://www.mtbrider.com/content.php?31-Re-DARD-at-it-again (http://www.mtbrider.com/content.php?31-Re-DARD-at-it-again)
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Please reply with your thoughts - it's important that we all get involved, even if it is just to add your voice!
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More revenue collection for the powers than be ::) >:(
I'll be posting some letters this afternoon :)
Perhaps you should send an email out to all NI-Wild members asking for their support :)
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Your brother across the pond is standing with you... well technically I'm sitting.. but I'm going to send an email as well.
Public lands are Public, and should stay that way.
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More stupid laws from penpushers who just haven't a clue. The amount of regulations in the UK saying you can't do this and you can't do that in relation to the outdoors is crazy. We need something like the allemannsrett/allemansrätten that they have in Norway and Sweden where you have the constitutional right to roam and camp in the countryside.
If these new byelaws were passed could we challenge them under the Human Rights Act? ::)
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Is there a link to the facebook campaign?
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It's in the post now, have been having some technical gremlins today!
This is it to save any scrolling:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fight-fining-us-for-being-in-a-forest-after-dark-in-Northern-Ireland/136767126399001 (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fight-fining-us-for-being-in-a-forest-after-dark-in-Northern-Ireland/136767126399001)
Is there a link to the facebook campaign?
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Not sure I could be more angry about this - and there was me thinking we might get the sort of access they have in Scotland!!!
That facebook link doesnt work for me, I think you have a hash on the end that shouldnt be there.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fight-fining-us-for-being-in-a-forest-after-dark-in-Northern-Ireland/136767126399001
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Doh, more gremlins! Fixed now, join away!
That facebook link doesnt work for me, I think you have a hash on the end that shouldnt be there.
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FFS!
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Coverage of the story in the press.
http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=128160 (http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=128160)
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/environment/mountain-bikers-vow-to-resist-plans-to-restrict-forest-access-16012457.html (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/environment/mountain-bikers-vow-to-resist-plans-to-restrict-forest-access-16012457.html)
If anyone spots any press coverage elsewhere please let me know.
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It's also not possible to wild camp any more on Forestry land, I've just had to re-organise an entire DoE hike because they're going to have to camp at the official campsite at Gortin Glen instead of on the mountains :( If they want to walk off the official paths they will need to apply in advance and get official permission, compete with route maps.
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This sounds nuts - could you give us any more information - where you were supposed to be camping and who told you that you couldn't? Do the Forestry Service own any of the mountains?
It's also not possible to wild camp any more on Forestry land, I've just had to re-organise an entire DoE hike because they're going to have to camp at the official campsite at Gortin Glen instead of on the mountains :( If they want to walk off the official paths they will need to apply in advance and get official permission, compete with route maps.
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This email address is invalid.....
michelle.oneil@mla.niassembly.gov.uk
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When I check those grid refs in Mapyx they're in Bangor town, around High Street? Either you're going easy on the kids these days or my co-ords are up the left :)
We were supposed to be camping at (Sheet 13) 503 814 and 493 841. We've been told by the DoE that we can't use either of these campsites as there is now no camping allowed by FS outside official designated campsites, so now the kids have to do their route then hike in to the main campsite every night. Also we have to follow paths while on FS land. What's the point of training the kids to do wild camping when they're not allowed to use their skills :(
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Just a few thoughts...from over the sheugh.
Why are they instituting this - would I be correct in guessing the whole point is to dissuade access from Newcastle and is a reaction to the fires earlier this year? More to the point - how big is the fine (the blurb mentions a scale...a scale of what) and who would enforce it...is it enforceable? Like, I can really see a forestry service ranger being parked up in the Donard car park at 5pm on a winter Saturday (not).
On the subject of wild-camping - dunno about DoE in NIron, but over here wildcamping for DoE is very frowned upon. It is illegal without the landowners consent and there is only one area I know of (Dartmoor) where consent is given automatically/by byelaw - even there areas are limited to named spots. In certain areas (Peak District) wild-camping by anyone is absolutely forbidden (but you just get moved on, have no knowledge of anyone being fined).
I am kind of thinking - OK...Mmmm...not great, but would a Ranger be bothered with a group of smelly hairys tromping back into the carpark at 5 or 6 after a day out..when all everyone wants to do is nip up the road to the chippy or are they thinking of a group of disposable BBQ forest fire yobbos heading up the glen for a night's drinking? After all, its a fine after conviction - not an on the spot job?
Your thoughts?
(Regardless...as a blanket ban I think it is retrograde step and am protesting)
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I think it's michelle.oneill@mla.niassembly.gov.uk
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Well spotted. This is the correct email michelle.oneill@mla.niassembly.gov.uk (http://michelle.oneill@mla.niassembly.gov.uk) and has been fixed in the first post.
Cheers for the headsup!
This email address is invalid.....
michelle.oneil@mla.niassembly.gov.uk
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It's also not possible to wild camp any more on Forestry land, I've just had to re-organise an entire DoE hike because they're going to have to camp at the official campsite at Gortin Glen instead of on the mountains :( If they want to walk off the official paths they will need to apply in advance and get official permission, compete with route maps.
This is more likely to be related to the current larch disease outbreak than just random clamping down on nice people doing good things.
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some of the points made by Simon Barry are feasible, people lighting camp fires in woods in a dry season is risky, and when drinks involved then disasters not far away!!!! Annalong wood is in ruins, also the amount of rubbish brought on to the Mournes and left behind is getting out of control, the shelter at lough shannagh looks like a rubbish tip. if this keep up it may not just be forest areas that camping is banned.
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If you think this is unique to N. Ireland - see here
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/moves-to-ban-wild-camping-in-certain-areas-around-loch-lomond-and-the-trossachs
as far as I know the ban around Loch Lomond is in place - and the last time I went up Glen Etive it looked like the remains of a travellers camp with sh_te everywhere
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Quite frankly I think this is terrible and I dont care what you say.
I dont really think anyone should be able to stop/limit your time in the outdoors. I'm sorry, but if I want to go camp at X location, then I'm going to go camp at X location.
I understand the issues of litter and forest fires being a serious issue, but this is not the way to deal with it. If anything its us who help it, we're the ones who go out into the forest and if we spot litter then we bring it back, or if we see something wrong we're more and likely the ones to do anything about it than anyone else. They cant possibly stop every single person from camping out or walking in these forests after sunset/before sunrise. The way I'm reading it, its making it out as we're some sort of cult that is damaging the forest.
I dont like how humans claim land and all that, you'd think with us being the intelligent species we might realise that the land doesnt belong to anyone or anything, and that its more we belong to it, and depend on it more than we realise.
If this byelaw does go ahead I' imagining I myself might accumulate a criminal record along with a few others, the way they are heading it will be criminal to be outdoors at all.
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Ive jumped on and sent this around to the bushcraft forums over the water, i have also sent it to the irish bushcraft club so hopefully they will pass the word around. Im going to do the USA next!
GF
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The americans are now on the ball!
GF
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This is more likely to be related to the current larch disease outbreak than just random clamping down on nice people doing good things.
I don't think this is the reason. I was at a meeting with DARD recently about the Phytophthora outbreaks and they were quite happy for us (other government agency) to be wandering round all their properties with no added biosecurity controls. As long as we obeyed any controls on known sites they were happy. Completely baffled to why they are doing what they're doing. Fire occurs and litter accumulates in daylight hours too.
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This will not help to target the firestarters who creep in and set blazes! If more people were in the forests at night, perhaps some of these anti-social elements would be caught.
Banning access is not a good idea.
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Just a few thoughts...from over the sheugh.
On the subject of wild-camping - dunno about DoE in NIron, but over here wildcamping for DoE is very frowned upon. It is illegal without the landowners consent and there is only one area I know of (Dartmoor) where consent is given automatically/by byelaw - even there areas are limited to named spots. In certain areas (Peak District) wild-camping by anyone is absolutely forbidden (but you just get moved on, have no knowledge of anyone being fined).
Your thoughts?
(Regardless...as a blanket ban I think it is retrograde step and am protesting)
It might just be because we're Scouts but I've always taken my Explorers off-site / greenfield / wild if at all possible. Have trowel will travel. Also I'd rather have the kids wild with me nearby than on a site with the public and without me. If they're on a campsite then someone has to be with them which to me defeats the object of the exercise. All their training hikes have been camping in forests / quarries / hillsides. Campsites are for the cubs :(
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We knew about the mountain biking issue but since Trailbadger and MTBRider were specifically looking at that element, we were concentrating purely on the question of open access.
Obviously there's no reason people can't do both. Just wanted to make it clear that we weren't ignoring the cycling element, just dividing our forces between a handful of online communities.
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Me thinks we need the help of these boys..
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Ive jumped on and sent this around to the bushcraft forums over the water, i have also sent it to the irish bushcraft club so hopefully they will pass the word around. Im going to do the USA next!
GF
Hi folks, the Irish Bushcraft Club are fully behind your campaign and will do what we can to help.
Good luck with it all.
Andrew
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More coverage from 4ni (http://www.4ni.co.uk) with a quote from NI Rural Development Minister Michelle O'Neill.
http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=128214 (http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=128214)
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Got an email there from Jan:
Dear Mr Patenall
Thank you for responding to our consultation on the draft Forestry Land Byelaws. We are considering your comments and will respond in detail in due course.
Regards
Jan Davidson
Policy and Legislation
Forest Service
' 028 905 24116
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At least they're not just filing the requests in the bin!
Got an email there from Jan:
Dear Mr Patenall
Thank you for responding to our consultation on the draft Forestry Land Byelaws. We are considering your comments and will respond in detail in due course.
Regards
Jan Davidson
Policy and Legislation
Forest Service
' 028 905 24116
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That is true. All respect for replying to an email.
Saying email is a way to ignore people politely.
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http://www.build.ie/national_news.asp?newsid=128221 (http://www.build.ie/national_news.asp?newsid=128221)
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Well folks they are listening ... I just recieved a reply from Jan Davidson ... :)
Dear Mr Mullen
Thank you for responding to our consultation on the draft Forestry Land Byelaws. Your views, together with comments from other stakeholders, will be taken into account in the development of the new Byelaws.
Regards
Jan Davidson
Policy and Legislation
Forest Service
Keep the emails rolling in ... it can make a difference
Andrew
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Put a blog post together on the subject to try and spread the word a bit, so feel free to pass it on so we can try and get as many replies to the consultation as possible:
http://www.jonpatterson.co.uk/2011/curfews-for-ni-forests/
I've also put a link to a Word document with the suggested response letter pre-formatted, so it's easier than ever to add your comments and make your response. Regardless of the outcome I for one will at least feel happier knowing I've made my feelings on the subject known, and I truly hope that our collective voices will at least cause some consideration to be given to the subject.
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Just a quick update. I was contacted today by the producer of Good Morning Ulster (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007cps5) on BBC Radio Ulster. It looks like they are going to run the story and will be speaking to Peter Jack, a member of Triangle Triathlon Club (http://triangletriathlon.org/members.html), along with a representative from the Forest Service. I assume this is going to be on tomorrows show, so will be worth tuning in or catching it on iPlayer.
Disclaimer: Don't blame me if you get up at 6.30am to listen in and for whatever reason the story doesn't run tomorrow ;)
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This is on right now.
Just a quick update. I was contacted today by the producer of Good Morning Ulster (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007cps5) on BBC Radio Ulster. It looks like they are going to run the story and will be speaking to Peter Jack, a member of Triangle Triathlon Club (http://triangletriathlon.org/members.html), along with a representative from the Forest Service. I assume this is going to be on tomorrows show, so will be worth tuning in or catching it on iPlayer.
Disclaimer: Don't blame me if you get up at 6.30am to listen in and for whatever reason the story doesn't run tomorrow ;)
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Was just listening to it there. I think Peter Jack was an excellent spokesperson and put across views that will be widely supported by the public. I think that's what needs to be drilled home here, that this doesn't just affect those interested in niche sports but actually affects pretty much anyone who steps foot in a forest be it young/old/family whoever. Very glad to see the piece got a good time slot right around the morning commute/school run time. Now it will be interesting to see what the Forest Service decides to do with all the responses they have gathered from their consultation...
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Did they mention the mountain biking issue at all?
Was just listening to it there. I think Peter Jack was an excellent spokesperson and put across views that will be widely supported by the public. I think that's what needs to be drilled home here, that this doesn't just affect those interested in niche sports but actually affects pretty much anyone who steps foot in a forest be it young/old/family whoever. Very glad to see the piece got a good time slot right around the morning commute/school run time. Now it will be interesting to see what the Forest Service decides to do with all the responses they have gathered from their consultation...
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I heard it too, I don't think mountain biking was mentioned specifically though. I agree that Peter Jack spoke well on the issue, a bit repetitive at times but certainly got the issue across and I applaud him for that. The Forest Service representative didn't seem to speak well at all and I think was at a loss for words at times when grilled by the presenter.
The consultation period ends today apparently so I'll be getting my email fired off to get my views across.
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I think he was at a loss for words because he was defending something pretty indefensible. Regardless of whether this passes or not I still think we should campaign for a relaxing of the byelaws. I'm sick of being given lists of perfectly reasonable things that I can't do, like go have a quick bivvy in a forest when I'm doing absolutely no harm.
I heard it too, I don't think mountain biking was mentioned specifically though. I agree that Peter Jack spoke well on the issue, a bit repetitive at times but certainly got the issue across and I applaud him for that. The Forest Service representative didn't seem to speak well at all and I think was at a loss for words at times when grilled by the presenter.
The consultation period ends today apparently so I'll be getting my email fired off to get my views across.
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Did the Forest Service representative give any reasons why they want to implement this bylaw?
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Agreed, it's very unfair and whilst I understand that they might want to keep out undesirable 'users' of the forests for people like us we should be allowed. It's also bad for business as well, both in terms of the tourist trade and the outdoor shops. How is this helping the economic recovery?! Maybe if there was some sort of permit for groups like us it would help?
In any case I've now sent my objections to Jan Davidson, Michelle O'Neill and my MLA.
Let's see what the response is!
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Did the Forest Service representative give any reasons why they want to implement this bylaw?
One argument put forward was for the safety of people using the forest with the example of people who got into trouble using the lake at Castlewellan a few years ago. Understandable, yes but if you're a responsible user why should you be punished?
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Purely health and safety as far as I could tell which is total nonsense. He went on about how children might drown swimming if they went at night which didn't even make that much sense in context - swimming is already banned by a byelaw and a child could fall in any number of lakes, rivers or seas on or off forestry land. Banning them from a forest incase they drown is like banning them from the sea incase they get stuck up a tree!
Did the Forest Service representative give any reasons why they want to implement this bylaw?
This has been suggested a number of times and on the surface it seems like a good idea. However, I feel that having to ask permission to use the forest is as bad as being banned anyways. We'll all end up mired in red tape and health and safety nonsense. A good example is, if you want to launch your canoe from the canoe trail in Delamont country park you have to fill out a mad health and safety questionnaire before they'll even open the gate (that stays locked at all other times). Leave me alone, I'm an adult and I can decide myself what is safe and what isn't, I don't need someone making decisions for me as if I was 9!
Maybe if there was some sort of permit for groups like us it would help?
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Hot off the press folks, I've just stuck together a post which talks about the radio show this morning and the opinions put across during it. There is also a link on the post to allow you to listen to the show again.
http://www.jonpatterson.co.uk/2011/forest-service-draconian-byelaws/
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Sorry to totally hijack this thread ::)
Here is what happened in Castlewellan.
http://www.u.tv/News/Drowning-tragedyTell-Mummy-I-love-her/d28b7242-b4e3-4d31-80a6-4f47ad71d068 (http://www.u.tv/News/Drowning-tragedyTell-Mummy-I-love-her/d28b7242-b4e3-4d31-80a6-4f47ad71d068)
While it's very sad and I feel for the parents does this quote sound like a reason to ban everyone in the whole country from forests in the evenings:
Clare Steele and her cousin Rory McAlinden had been drinking before going out on the lake in a stolen canoe.
Did the Forest Service representative give any reasons why they want to implement this bylaw?
One argument put forward was for the safety of people using the forest with the example of people who got into trouble using the lake at Castlewellan a few years ago. Understandable, yes but if you're a responsible user why should you be punished?
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Did the Forest Service representative give any reasons why they want to implement this bylaw?
One argument put forward was for the safety of people using the forest with the example of people who got into trouble using the lake at Castlewellan a few years ago. Understandable, yes but if you're a responsible user why should you be punished?
he chose a poor example, no byelaws would have stopped that, and as Castlewellan has a campsite a few hundred feet from the lake it would be the most difficult place to enforce a nighttime curfew!
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Forest service is part of CAAN, our wee province's umbrella organisation which promotes and improves access to the countryside, and even CAAN's other member organisations think these new bylaws are daft.
I asked Caro-Lynne Ferris how Countryside Recreation were responding to the proposals.
They reckon the bylaws could never be enforced without giving the Forest Service more resources. Among other things, she pointed out that
"Research carried out for SportNI in 2009 by CAAN showed that cycling takes places in over 80 different venues across Northern Ireland, the majority of which are Forest Service sites."
If they do introduce 'cycling zones' in the forests they'd have to have a detailed Recreational Plan for every Forest, particularly those which are currently recognised as cycling venues, and the acceptable zones would need to be properly and clearly marked out.
From that I read that if they do insist on going ahead with this, it will cost them a fortune.
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This is also going to be covered on Talkback on Radio Ulster today :)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007cpt4
This is really great coverage. I'm sure the Forest Service are sick as they thought this was going to slip through unnoticed; well done to all :)
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Sorry to totally hijack this thread ::)
Here is what happened in Castlewellan.
http://www.u.tv/News/Drowning-tragedyTell-Mummy-I-love-her/d28b7242-b4e3-4d31-80a6-4f47ad71d068 (http://www.u.tv/News/Drowning-tragedyTell-Mummy-I-love-her/d28b7242-b4e3-4d31-80a6-4f47ad71d068)
While it's very sad and I feel for the parents does this quote sound like a reason to ban everyone in the whole country from forests in the evenings:
Clare Steele and her cousin Rory McAlinden had been drinking before going out on the lake in a stolen canoe.
Glad you looked that up, as when I was listening to the response on the radio I thought that was a very poor example. Whilst it was a tragic incident it doesn't seem to offer any justification for the proposed byelaws. Their approach to "duty of care" seems to be to blanket ban everything so they cant be held to account. I thought it was also very appropriate that Mark Carruthers pointed out there are many Forest Service areas with lakes that have no daytime supervision anyway.
Banning them from a forest incase they drown is like banning them from the sea incase they get stuck up a tree!
I like that ;)
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Does anyone know what the contact details are for Talkback?
This is also going to be covered on Talkback on Radio Ulster today :)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007cpt4
This is really great coverage. I'm sure the Forest Service are sick as they thought this was going to slip through unnoticed; well done to all :)
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http://38degrees.uservoice.com/forums/78585-campaign-suggestions/suggestions/1940005-help-stop-these-new-forestry-byelaws-fines-for-b?ref=title
Could everyone vote on this too please. :)
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Does anyone know what the contact details are for Talkback?
This is also going to be covered on Talkback on Radio Ulster today :)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007cpt4
This is really great coverage. I'm sure the Forest Service are sick as they thought this was going to slip through unnoticed; well done to all :)
Text: 81771
Phone: 0845 9555678
They're still talking about the fun in East Belfast last night ::)
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They're still talking about the fun in East Belfast last night
surprised they don't try and solve that with a byelaw ::)
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They're still talking about the fun in East Belfast last night
surprised they don't try and solve that with a byelaw ::)
Funny someone did a mention a curfew ::)
They'd probably get a nasty fine if they came out :D Perhaps the Forest Wardens will train with the riot squad, maybe even borrow their water cannon ;D
I did hear the piece on Talkback. It was a bit light but at least it has raised it to a new audience.
All agreed that it was a load of old nonsense. However, those seem to be laws that get passed these days :-\
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Another article
http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=128327 (http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=128327)
Plus, the Facebook group is now over 500 people
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Having had a chance to read the bylaws today my favourites are 'no singing' and 'no cursing'! Is it 1st April!?
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Due to the incident in Castlewellan all Outdoor providers no longer store/leave boats unsupervised.
If they want to introduce the bye law due to this incident, why not have a warden/security on throughout the evening to keep an eye on the area, this will also help with unruley campers.
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Article in the Down News
http://www.downnews.co.uk/latest-news/fines-proposed-on-night-time-forest-users
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Having had a chance to read the bylaws today my favourites are 'no singing' and 'no cursing'! Is it 1st April!?
No singing?! That's ridiculous. I like a wee sing / whistle to myself when walking.
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it's
no singing in such a way as could reasonably cause annoyance to other users.
I think every forest now needs to have three people sitting at a desk to judge how annoying your singing is. :-\ XXX
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it's
no singing in such a way as could reasonably cause annoyance to other users.
I think every forest now needs to have three people sitting at a desk to judge how annoying your singing is. :-\ XXX
lol
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Shamara spotted this link:
http://www.mountaineering.ie/news/viewdetails.asp?ID=602
A very sensible take on the situation from Mountaineering Ireland.
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Was just about to post that.. ;D
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Sorry for stealing your thunder but it was extremely interesting :)
Was just about to post that.. ;D
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Yep I totally agree
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Interesting indeed, so if I read it correctly does section 5.1 actually seem to imply that the new law will contradict itself?
I got a response from my MLA on the matter who says that they are taking the matter seriously and gave the party response to the proposals. Apparently the use of forests after dark causes them the most concern and they have poropsed that signange is erected in forests so that at least people would be there at their own risk.
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Just read the item from MI and it is a very considered response and one which I gladly give my support.
Copy of my email:-
Basil McCrea MLA
Ref:-Proposed New Bye-Lawsb Restricting use of Forestry Commission Lands.
The Forestry Service has opened a consultation on proposed revisions to the byelaws that apply to their land. The byelaws are already pretty draconian with regard to restrictions on what you are permitted to do on forestry land but the new changes specifically ban being in one of their forests between sunset and sunrise.
I am a member of the Northern Ireland Outdoors Forum, NI Wild which caters for people interested in most outdoors activities. Please use link to the website:-www.ni-wild.co.uk
The members of NI Wild are extremely concerned with the impact of this proposal and the views can be viewed using this link:-www.ni-wild.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2142.0
In particular I draw your attention the considered response from Mountaineering Ireland
http://www.mountaineering.ie/news/viewdetails.asp?ID=602
I trust that this is sufficient information on which you are able to give your opinion on the value of such legislation and the usefullness of continuing with it.
I am of course happy to discuss further and no doubt members of the NI Wild forum would welcome the opportunity to express their feelings to you.
Thank you for reading this email and I look forward to your reply.
Thank you.
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Just saw this on PSNI Holywood facebook site
We have had reports of fires being lit by young people in Redburn. Thankfully a members of the public have been putting these fires out. Please know where and what your children are up to as this type of behaviour could lead to serious injury and damage to property.
It makes me angry that we are trying to fight these bye laws and this happens..
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I think every forest now needs to have three people sitting at a desk to judge how annoying your singing is.
Hmm, pretty annoying for everybody except me I suspect, that's why I go up the mountains to do it!
Just to say I support the efforts of everybody here against this ban on forest use after dark. It's a stupid idea. Personally I'll just go ahead and walk / camp / whatever but we shouldn't have to run the risk of fines.
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I've emailed the Minister, Dard and 3 local mp's..DUP, UUP and SDLP..the only one to get back to me Was Alban Maginness of the SDLP, he was very sympathetic to the plight and has instructed one of his collegues to write to the minister asking for a meeting to discuss this issue..Well done for him, shame on the other 2 parties for not even bothering to reply.
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I've emailed the Minister, Dard and 3 local mp's..DUP, UUP and SDLP..the only one to get back to me Was Alban Maginness of the SDLP, he was very sympathetic to the plight and has instructed one of his collegues to write to the minister asking for a meeting to discuss this issue..Well done for him, shame on the other 2 parties for not even bothering to reply.
I also wrote to my MLA who is UUP and did get a reply stating the party are taking action on this so I think you're a bit premature in shaming them.
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Thankfully a members of the public have been putting these fires out.
If the byelaws come into force there won't be any law-abiding members of the public around to put the fires out.
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I've emailed the Minister, Dard and 3 local mp's..DUP, UUP and SDLP..the only one to get back to me Was Alban Maginness of the SDLP, he was very sympathetic to the plight and has instructed one of his collegues to write to the minister asking for a meeting to discuss this issue..Well done for him, shame on the other 2 parties for not even bothering to reply.
I also wrote to my MLA who is UUP and did get a reply stating the party are taking action on this so I think you're a bit premature in shaming them.
Simply put, I think you're wrong.
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And why am I wrong?
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Friends of the Earth Northern Ireland Press Release
For immediate release 4 July 2011
Contact Niall Bakewell on 077 292 08005 or email niall.bakewell@foe.co.uk
No Mediaeval Curfews for Northern Ireland’s Forests
Friends of the Earth today stated their opposition to a “mediaeval” byelaw[1], proposed by Northern Ireland Forest Service.
The proposed byelaw would forbid access to Forest Service land between sunset and sunrise, unless permission was granted by the agency.
Friends of the Earth Activism Co-ordinator, Niall Bakewell, said:
“This byelaw is reminiscent of the arbitrary restrictions imposed on peasants by their feudal landlords in the middle ages. It would run completely counter to the principle of free access to green space for Northern Ireland citizens. Our right to roam on privately owned land is inadequate to the point of being almost non-existent. For us then to have restrictions put on our movements on land that we collectively own would be a blow to liberty that we will not tolerate.”
He continued:
“The vast majority of people who are on Forest Service maintained land at night are there for perfectly legitimate reasons. In winter it would become almost impossible to enjoy this amenity without breaching the proposed curfew.”
Forest Service recently closed a public consultation on its proposed byelaws, and Friends of the Earth has reason to believe that the majority of respondents on this issue objected to the curfew.
Mr Bakewell said:
“We fully support Forest Service in protecting and improving the land that they control on our behalf, and we agree with byelaws that restrict risky or damaging behaviour such as carelessness with fire, or littering. The agency should be able to police such behaviour without resorting to a blanket ban on access to their sites after dark. In fact, we would argue that the continued presence of law-abiding citizens on Forest Service maintained property at night will ensure constant public vigilance and discourage those who would want to use this land inappropriately.”
He continued:
“We support those who are campaigning against this byelaw, especially the www.ni-wild.co.uk blog. We hope that Forest Service listens to everyone who has objected to their proposed curfew, and chooses to abandon this policy entirely. Forest Service land is our land, and we must be allowed to enjoy it without undue interference.”
ENDS
http://www.foe.co.uk/northern_ireland/press_releases/forest_curfew_04072011.html (http://www.foe.co.uk/northern_ireland/press_releases/forest_curfew_04072011.html)
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Any more news on this?
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Not much of an update, from the "COMMITTEE FOR AGRICULTURE AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT" TUESDAY 8 NOVEMBER 2011:
6. Presentation - DARD – Forestry Land Byelaws
The following officials joined the meeting:
Mr Malcolm Beatty, DARD;
Mr Michael McCann, DARD;
Mr John Joe O'Boyle, DARD
The officials briefed the Committee and this was followed by a question and answer session.
Agreed: The Committee noted the responses submitted to the Forestry Bye-laws consultation and discussed the issues raised with the officials, including representations made by the Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee. Members expressed concerns about the restrictive, rather than the permissive, tone of the proposed Bye-Laws. Members agreed that the Department should return to the Committee with a draft copy of the proposed bye-laws in due course.
3.41 pm Kieran McCarthy and William Irwin re-joined the meeting.
3.56 pm Dolores Kelly left the meeting.
4.01 pm Willie Clarke left the meeting.
4.16 pm Willie Clarke re-joined the meeting.
During this item Trevor Clarke Declared an Interest.
(source (http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/agriculture/2011mandate/minutes/2011/111108.htm))
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Interesting. Wonder what changes this will bring.
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Unfortunately (HA!) the recording of the meeting has been removed from the web site so we can't tell what exactly was said, but I've added the recordings to my RSS feed to catch them the next time around.
Just looked at the new bye-laws for the first time last night (sorry if this is old news but I can only see discussions about the 'access during hours of darkness' bit of the byelaw). (link PDF (http://www.dardni.gov.uk/forestservice/microsoft_word_-_forestry_land_byelaws__northern_ireland__2011.pdf) - right click save as)
Bans erecting tents/tarps/shelters:
General management
11.—(1) A person shall not—
(a) erect, set up or place any post, rail, fence, pole, tent, booth, stand building or structure of
any kind otherwise than for the purpose of camping, without the permission of the
Department;
Camping
12. A person shall not erect a tent or use a vehicle, caravan or any other structure for the purpose
of camping unless—
(a) with the permission of the Department; and
(b) in an area designated for camping.
Bans burning wood dead or alive - only allowed barbeques/camping stoves:
Protection of property
6. A person shall not—
(b) drop or leave any lighted match, tobacco, cigar, cigarette or other burning material, or set
fire to any tree or vegetation whether living or not
Protection general
10.—(1) A person shall not light any fire or stove other than a proper barbeque or camping
stove.
(2) The barbeques and camping stoves referred to in paragraph (1) may only be lit—
(a) in designated areas; and
(b) in such a manner as to safeguard against damage or danger to any person, wildlife,
building, structure, tree, shrub or vegetation
Bans cyclists using dead trees for ramps:
Protection of forestry land and wildlife
7.—(1) A person shall not —
(b) dig up, remove, cut, run over or injure any tree, shrub or plant, whether living or not, or
remove the seeds (except picking common berries or fruits or other edible plants or
fungi, provided that these are taken for personal use only);
Bans Christmas Camps:
General management
11.—(1) A person shall not—
(c) organise any event, show or exhibition without the permission of the Department;
It's an interesting situation, they need these bye-laws to use against folks setting fire to the forests as we had at the start of the year (or folks cutting down trees jut for shits'n'giggles, but by doing so they have to clamp down on folks like ourselves. Shame, but I can't see how they can avoid it. Will be interesting to see how this pans out.
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(http://i.imgur.com/VIHNs.jpg)
Either way it's a £50 fine :)
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only £50 ! you got off lightly
(http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd496/landyliam/2011/P1050726Small.jpg)
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So does this mean that we're all going to be breaking the law now for even small things???
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we won.
Or to put it more accurately, common sense prevailed.
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we won.
Or to put it more accurately, common sense prevailed.
How have we won? Is there something obvious that I'm not seeing?
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we won.
Or to put it more accurately, common sense prevailed.
I'm mystified too as to how you see this, or do I note heavy sarcasm?
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The 2 biggest points of contention in the new byelaws were that no bicycles would be allowed in forests except in designated areas and that it would be illegal to be in a forest for any reason between sunset and sunrise. Whether the Assembly requiring that the rules be slackened address either of these issues is still to be determined.
So does this mean that we're all going to be breaking the law now for even small things???
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I'm sure the dogging community is on tenterhooks.
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So does this mean that we're all going to be breaking the law now for even small things???
As RedLeader says, the new byelaw ("The Forestry Land Byelaws (Northern Ireland) 2011") has not been passed and another draft has been requested by the Assembly.
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I think the issue beneath the issue is really that people are apathetic because they think exactly this - what would you be doing in a forest after dark anyway. However, walking your dog after 4pm in winter would be illegal as would night orienteering or any games after dark, fishing would be out, even coming down off the Mournes to Newcastle once the sun had set would be illegal not to mention most obviously for us, all camping would be restricted to official campsites. All would incur a £300 fine.
Regardless of whether this is an issue that effects someone personally, we need to curb the Gov thinking it's alright to keep banning stuff without really legitimate reasons. Human beings need a bit of freedom and space.
I'm sure the dogging community is on tenterhooks.
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Subject: Dobson welcomes climb down from DARD Minister over proposed forestry by-laws
TUESDAY 29TH NOVEMBER
RELEASE IMMEDIATE
Dobson welcomes climb down from DARD Minister over proposed forestry by-laws
Ulster Unionist Agriculture spokesperson, Jo-Anne Dobson has welcomed a climb down by the DARD Minister over a number of proposed forestry by-laws.
“I am sure that many people will be pleased to hear that the Minister has now decided to take a less draconian approach to implementing her forestry bye-laws, not least in relation to the ridiculous proposal to close forests between sunset and sunrise.’
“The Ulster Unionist Party and those others who had responded to the consultation had roundly criticised this proposal as being overly harsh and are therefore pleased that the Minister has taken on board our suggestions.’
“Just a few weeks ago we heard that a number of the proposals had been dropped by DARD following extensive and detailed responses to the consultation. These included the totally impractical proposal to restrict fishing in forestry land.’
“However a number of areas which, despite receiving a significant number of objections remain under consideration, including the prohibitive proposal to ban cycling in forests, other than in designated areas and the strict proposal on the lighting of a fire or stove in a forest.’
“It appears that decisions on these and other outstanding issues are not now be taken until into the new year – we await the Ministers proposals with interest.’
ENDS
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Sorry, got to call BS on that press release.
Why would Jo-Anne Dobson say the DARD Minister "climb(ed) down" when the record shows that the DARD Minister was told by the committee that they had "concerns about the restrictive, rather than the permissive, tone of the proposed Bye-Laws". So the DARD Minister was told to go away and make the new byelaws 'sound' nicer, nothing about changing the laws it's going to enforce.
6. Presentation - DARD – Forestry Land Byelaws
The following officials joined the meeting:
Mr Malcolm Beatty, DARD;
Mr Michael McCann, DARD;
Mr John Joe O'Boyle, DARD
The officials briefed the Committee and this was followed by a question and answer session.
Agreed: The Committee noted the responses submitted to the Forestry Bye-laws consultation and discussed the issues raised with the officials, including representations made by the Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee. Members expressed concerns about the restrictive, rather than the permissive, tone of the proposed Bye-Laws. Members agreed that the Department should return to the Committee with a draft copy of the proposed bye-laws in due course.
3.41 pm Kieran McCarthy and William Irwin re-joined the meeting.
3.56 pm Dolores Kelly left the meeting.
4.01 pm Willie Clarke left the meeting.
4.16 pm Willie Clarke re-joined the meeting.
During this item Trevor Clarke Declared an Interest.
(source (http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/agriculture/2011mandate/minutes/2011/111108.htm))
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because she has climbed down.
press release is to be released later today.
it's not as big a climbdown as I first thought though, relating mostly to the 'after dark' sections and leaving nearly everything else.
Here's what I got:
"It has been decided to relax the proposed restriction on night-time use by pedestrians to allow the continued use of forest roads and paths after dark. A press release will be issued shortly and should be available on the website tomorrow."
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You can watch Minister Michelle O'Neill discussing this during Question Time on the BBC Democracy Live (http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/northern_ireland/newsid_9647000/9647393.stm) page. Thankfully the clip starts with the subject, so you don't have to go hunting for it! Haven't had a chance to watch and digest it all yet, but will be back for a chat about it soon :)
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All sounds very positive. Thanks for the info and video.
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Interesting to view that. I just hope that whatever byelaws are introduced are also policed with common sense.
I suppose what I mean is that should they come across some wee maggots trying to fell healthy trees for a large uncontrolled bonfire, that they take appropriate action. However should they come across a hobby-interest group that has gathered some dead wood for a small fire, taking into account all reasonable precautions, that they are allowed to excercise discretion, giving advice if necessary. The personnel should be trained with regards to making a risk assessment.
Lets face it, they will not, nor perhaps should they, make it explictly legal to light fires in forests however they should have the powers necessary to determine if action is necessary where the lighting of a fire is malicious or obviously careless.
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Sorry for bringing an old thread back to life, but I was curious if anyone knew the current status of these proposals?
The last summary of this was that the first proposal was rejected and a new one was being drafted, is anyone aware of what happened to the new proposal?
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Good news on this. It started out threatening to make it illegal to access forests after dark, now it is law that there is open access day and night!
Quote:
The public will now be able to exercise their public right of pedestrian access day or night unless the forest is closed for one of the reasons allowed in the byelaws.
new access regulations (http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/Assembly-Business/Official-Report/Written-Ministerial-Statements/Department-of-Agriculture-and-Rural-Development--Public-Right-of-Pedestrian-Access-to-DARD-Forestry-Land-and-New-Forestry-Land-By-laws-/)
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Is this just back to how it was before or is this a more lax rule?
Good news on this. It started out threatening to make it illegal to access forests after dark, now it is law that there is open access day and night!
Quote:
The public will now be able to exercise their public right of pedestrian access day or night unless the forest is closed for one of the reasons allowed in the byelaws.
new access regulations (http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/Assembly-Business/Official-Report/Written-Ministerial-Statements/Department-of-Agriculture-and-Rural-Development--Public-Right-of-Pedestrian-Access-to-DARD-Forestry-Land-and-New-Forestry-Land-By-laws-/)
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Good news on this. It started out threatening to make it illegal to access forests after dark, now it is law that there is open access day and night!
Quote:
The public will now be able to exercise their public right of pedestrian access day or night unless the forest is closed for one of the reasons allowed in the byelaws.
new access regulations (http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/Assembly-Business/Official-Report/Written-Ministerial-Statements/Department-of-Agriculture-and-Rural-Development--Public-Right-of-Pedestrian-Access-to-DARD-Forestry-Land-and-New-Forestry-Land-By-laws-/)
This is excellent news, the measures they were proposing were a bit draconian, glad to see they've made the right decision.
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I always had complete confidence that our authorities would make the right decision ::)