Northern Ireland Outdoors Forum - Hiking, camping and more
General => Gear Questions, Information, Reviews and Competitions => Topic started by: andy1984 on January 05, 2011
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Hi all,
I'm looking to spend a few £'s on a new mat and hopefully a bivvi bag and have a few questions!
My current sleeping bag is a SkyeHigh 600 which is rated for -5 i think. Now i'm usually quite a hot sleeper at home not liking to be boiling hot. However i've camped out a few times in my SkyeHigh 600 and i've always ranged from being just about comfortable to being a bit cold! The only time i was cold was on the summit of Bearnagh, it was pretty windy but temp wasnt below freezing i would say prob 2 -3 degrees C.
I've thought about this and i think it couldnt have been the bag, as its rated for -5 so i thought it might of been what i was sleeping on! All i've ever slept on so far is a old foam mat (not that thick!). I could defn feel the cold coming through the ground that night ( i think of the summit of bearnagh your basically sleeping on a thin layer of soil and then rock, so the ground is cold).
I was thinking of investing in a self inflating mat. I have been looking at the Alpkit Base 120 http://www.alpkit.com/shop/cart.php?target=product&product_id=16532&category_id=289
So my questions are:
- Would this mat be ok? any recomendations?
- Is the 3/4 self inflating mat going to keep the cold out? ( i was thinking of using the foam mat plus the 3/4 mat)
Also is my sleeping bag actually suitable for the up and coming summit camp!?
That follows on to the bivvi bag, thanks for the replys on another thread about your thoughts, I'm wondering about space in the bivvi, would the hunka XL be better? Do people generally have their mat inside the bivvi?
Thanks!! Sorry for all the questions!
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Weird, I came online specifically to ask about sleeping mats....
I have an Alpkit sleeping mat and it never stays inflated, however I don't know anyone else with a similar problem. Generally if if I can stand the weight I take a self inflating mat and foam mat and use them together. The foam mat is only about 250g and the double layer makes quite a difference (plus it's useful for sitting on). I never put the mat inside the bag as it's like being tied to an ironing board (although most people do). I have an Alpkit Hunka and it's a great bag. The standard is sized for their sleeping bags and I assume is quite tight so it gives extra insulation. However, I know people like to be able to get their gear inside the bivi with them which would need a bigger bag.
Few things to ponder:
* What do you wear in the sleeping bag. As I understand it the bag needs heat to retain in the first place so if you are wearing too many clothes then not enough warm air gets trapped between you and the bag for comfort so you should get in just in baselayers and once you've gotten comfy then think about adding layers if you're still cold.
* Again, with the activation of the down, it's sensible to jump around a bit when you get in at first to create some heat so either do something active right before you get in (star jumps or something like that) or once you're in do situps in the bag.
* If you're still cold try and not wear big thick stuff like jackets in the bag. Jackets should be over you on the outside (unless they're also down in which case you can wear them).
* If you use a 3/4 length mat try and put something under your legs to raise you off the ground. Emptying the rucksack and using it is a good one.
* Eat before you get into the bag so you have plenty of calories to burn to generate heat. Also, I'm not sure how much a hot drink actually helps but it definitely makes you feel more comfy.
* Wear a hat as your head isn't warmed by the bag.
* Try and get in in dry clothes. A spare pair of socks for the evenings is a good idea (plus 2 plastic bags so you can still put wet boots on without soaking your lovely comfy socks).
I learned most of this from Andy Kirkpatrick. He has an excellent writeup here:
http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/maximising_your_bags_warmth
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So Andy is looking specifically at Alpkit mats but what does everyone else recommend. I was pondering a Thermarest Neoair but I'm wary it might not be hardy enough.
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Hi I'm new to all this too but I bought a alpkit airic sleep mat and used it in the snow ,i put it on top of a foam mat mainly for protection from getting a puncture but the added insulation was great as I felt no cold from the ground up, I have tried putting a mat inside my bivi but I find it to restrictive especially if you need to get out for a quick pee , with the mat on the ground you can shuffle in bag and keep warm until you need to be exposed , I did lose my old foam mat on binnian due to the wind when I done this and had to lie on the ground , so I think it's perssonel choice trail and error :)
Sleeping bags I still don't really understand but Dowser uses a tescos mummy sleeping bag as a liner which again I used in my bag in the snow and I had to take my top layers off as I was too warm ,
I use a Rab bivi but from what I've read the hunka never gets a bad review
Hope that kind of helps
Cheers Andy
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Cheers J, thats some helpful information!
To answer a few of your questions:
- I usually wear just a pair of cheap (Primark?) thermal leggings + t shirt, socks and hat. Sometimes when i have been cold i've put a fleece on!
- Activation of the down: this is interesting, i've never thought about this, usually i just get in ( prob a little cold from standing around!) get undressed, into my bag and lay down! might try doing something activate first before i climb in!
- I generally do eat a meal but maybe i should do it closer to getting the bag.
I am thinking that most of the cold has been coming up through the ground because when camping in the forest ( laying on the soft pine needles, moss etc which would give insulation i've been fine!)
As for the mat, i was looking at Alpkit as it seemed pretty cheap, the base 120 is £25 and 520g. But i'd like the most insulation for the £ but not too heavy either!
I really gotta look at getting my kit lighter, i struggle getting it in a 65L bag.
What weight would you guys aim for on say a 1-2 night trip?
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So Andy is looking specifically at Alpkit mats but what does everyone else recommend. I was pondering a Thermarest Neoair but I'm wary it might not be hardy enough.
There is a new primaloft mat out think it's by vaude in trail magazine that packs down smaller and it conducts heat quicker ,if I remember the price is over £100
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It's fair to say that if you don't have a self inflating mat then the Alpkit ones are very reasonably priced for their weight and are generally well reviewed so a great place to start.
Once you start thinking about the weight you'll be OCD about it forever :) Generally I try to keep to below 14kg including the rucksack. However it's a thorny issue depending largely on the weight of the actual rucksack (mine is 1.2kg so nearly 9% of my target weight) and whether you have to carry all the water you need. Between enough to drink, cook with and mix with your evening Jack Daniels you might need 2L or more which at 1Kg per L means that you have 2Kg and 14% of your weight just in water. So if I was going somewhere that I didn't have to take water I'd aim for 12Kg. That said, I don't travel light and like my gadgets and comforts - there's plenty on here that can happily travel with 10kg (the bastards).
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Watch out redleader the OCD is starting to show in your last post ;D
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I'm too far gone, I can only hope to save some others ::)
Watch out redleader the OCD is starting to show in your last post ;D
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I think i'll go for the Alpkit one to start with, at £25 its worth a chance.
The other question then is sleeping bag, is the Skyhigh 600 ok for this time of year? I know that unless there was extreme weather i'd survive until morning! :-)
What sleeping bags do you guys generally use for a summit camp at this time of year?
Weight wise, i mustnt be too bad then, i think i was about 13kg last time including a couple of litres of water and a half bottle of whiskey ;-)
Its still bloodly hard to lug up a mountain though...... ;D
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I think you should be fine as long as you have a few layers you can put on if it's really cold. Sleeping bags are like boots, they're incredibly personal and a bag that someone boils in can have someone else freezing. Dowser is a good example where his sleep system is a Tesco mummy sleeping bag for summer and for winter 2 Tesco mummy sleeping bags one inside the other and he's more than happy with that :)
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The other question then is sleeping bag, is the Skyhigh 600 ok for this time of year? I know that unless there was extreme weather i'd survive until morning! :-)
Yes, I'd stick with the bag you have. I had a SH600 but replaced it with the PipeDream 400 which is rated at -3C compared to the SkyeHigh which is -5. From what I can gather Alpkit's rating is comparable to the "Comfort" rating on other bags. So its the lowest temperature at which an average person can have an adequate nights sleep. Some other manufacturers will give lower ratings, but these can often be "Extreme" temperatures which I think are basically the lowest temperature at which an average person can survive the night.
I've used the PipeDream 400 in some pretty chilly winter temperatures wearing nothing but Helly Hansen baselayer leggings and top. I sometimes wake up a bit chilly and need to cinch down the drawstrings, but I warm up again quickly and am never actually cold. I always have a fleece with me so know I can throw it on if I do get cold.
Personally I'd rather have a lighter, more packable sleeping bag like the SH600 or PD400. Its still comfortable enough to use in summer, but when the winter comes I know I can wear an extra layer to keep me toasty. At our Donard Wood Christmas camp I actually slept with the PipeDream inside my bivvy bag, inside a tent. Definitely boosted the temperature!
Oh, and I miss my SkyeHigh. Its a bit bulkier and a bit heavier than my PipeDream but the SkyeHigh is more spacious, has a lovely foot box and uses a nice soft material. My PipeDream has a rather slippy exterior shell that just loves sending me sliding down my sleeping mat :D
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Spongy off-trail forest ground is lovely to sleep on, but as you say, rock and ice are a lot colder.
I've used a Thermarest Prolite 4 (now Prolite Plus) directly on snow at -12 and only felt the cold where my hip compressed the mat... a little bit of foam there would have helped, but I used my notepad which was less comfortable... darn spiral-bound :D
Your bag should be mostly ok if you have a good mat. A bivi or a liner, or both, will also add some degrees. A few 8-hour handwarmers can also make a difference on a particularly cold night and weigh very little.
Pack-weight - doing the MMM, my team mate and I had 9Kg between us for an overnight camp! In summer I could probably do 7-9kg self-supported for a few days. Add a bit for winter. On the WHW, with a change of clothes and food for a week, my friend and I started with about 16Kg before water...it's just a progression really - a journey in itself as you become more familiar with a particular environment. I have carried 20-30 kg for days before and it was highly unpleasant!
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It sounds as though it's been covered pretty well, but I reckon I'll share my "2 cents" worth:
I guided for a back-country program out in Colorado for a couple of years, and tried quite a few combinations. If out in REALLY COLD conditions, it's worth the extra weight to put a closed-cell foam under your self-inflating in the bivi sack. I used a RidgeRest regular under my Thermarest and was well insulated even when the temperature dropped to sub comfortable at night. The other benefit is that even if you get a puncture, leaky valve or have some other sort of pilot error, you aren't as likely to wake up feeling as though you've frozen to the ground. As it gets warmer or if weight is a serious consideration (racing or quick alpine assault), this is obviously scaled back.
Boiling a pot of water, filling a nalgene and sticking it in the bottom of your bag inside a hat or sock is also an excellent way to sort out cold feet at bedtime.
Re: the Neo Air, I had the same question about it's longevity in the field. Has anyone been used one to any extent and how did they find it held up?
All the best!
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I imagine the NeoAir is about as puncture prone as a regular Thermarest - which I've never had a problem with.
Most reviews I have heard about, the users are surprised at it's toughness. For sake of comfort, I'm going to try one this year.
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I used a RidgeRest regular under my Thermarest and was well insulated even when the temperature dropped to sub comfortable at night. The other benefit is that even if you get a puncture, leaky valve or have some other sort of pilot error, you aren't as likely to wake up feeling as though you've frozen to the ground.
Funny, I was just about to post about the Ridgerest. I've started using one ever since I spotted 6-Pack sleeping on one at the Chimney Rock camp. It's pretty comfy and insulating for a foam mat, and its really reassuring knowing that it can't deflate! I also like that I can use it outside my bivvy bag, and despite being slightly bulky it's still lightweight. 6-Pack showed me a neat trick of cutting an inch off the top of the mat which allows it to roll up much tighter, and I'm also going to trim mine to a more tapered shape to further reduce weight/bulk. Because I use an OMM DuoMat as the backrest in my rucksack then I also throw this small mat on top of the Ridgerest for even further comfort and insulation - great combo!
I imagine the NeoAir is about as puncture prone as a regular Thermarest - which I've never had a problem with.
I can't remember if it was you or Chris that said the same thing to me. The NeoAir looks fragile, but at the end of the day the material is similar to a regular Thermarest but without a layer of foam in the middle. So technically it should be every bit as robust as a regular Thermarest, and from what I gather they are about as tough as they come for self-inflating mats. I'd certainly like to give one a try, although I still like the bomb proof simplicity of the Ridgerest!
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If buying a thermarest I would suggest paying the extra bit more for full length rather than 3/4.
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Why? I thought it was always more sensible to but a 3/4.
If buying a thermarest I would suggest paying the extra bit more for full length rather than 3/4.
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I found the full length kept me warmer than the 3/4. Suppose it's personal choice..
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I find my ridge rest + half bottle of rum is a great combo ;D
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I suppose with the NeoAir you have a much higher drop-off if you go for the short version compared to a normal self-inflated sleep mat. It may take a wee bit of time to find the best piece of kit to prop the lower legs up. On the other hand some people seem happy to just hang off the end.
With other self-inflated sleep mats it always seems to be a straight 120 v 180 debate. But I think some of the manufacturers also do a womens' size of 160 which could be the answer for some people.
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Personally I'm fully signed up to the 3/4 length brigade, but it did take me awhile to get used to it. If my legs get chilly I just slip the OMM DuoMat underneath them :)
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Am I the only one to use the Mountain Equipment Helium 3.8? It's a great mat, really comfy and i've never felt the cold from beneath. I use a Roben's down bag with a lower comfort of -9, and a trekmates gore-tex bivvy bag. I've slept in that setup in -6° with just merino wool baselayer trousers on and a pair of socks, and was very toasty. I was camping in Norway in november in -13° and the only thing I changed was adding a fleece liner to the bag, and again was nice and warm. I always make sure to warm up by doing some star jumps or something similar before getting into the bag, and as soon as I'm in I tighten up the shoulder baffle to stop heat getting out the top. An important thing to remember is to keep your shirt for the next day inside your sleeping bag so its nice and warm, that way it makes getting out of your sleeping bag on a frosty morning that little bit more bearable, not having to put freezing cold fabric onto your skin.
Has anyone any experience with the Rab Storm bivvy? I can't decide between it and the Alpkit Hunka that everyone seems to be raving about. From what I can tell the Storm bivvy could hold out better in really nasty weather, whereas the Hunka would be better suited under the tarp. Anyone any experience of this?
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Has anyone any experience with the Rab Storm bivvy? I can't decide between it and the Alpkit Hunka that everyone seems to be raving about. From what I can tell the Storm bivvy could hold out better in really nasty weather, whereas the Hunka would be better suited under the tarp. Anyone any experience of this?
I've used both the Alpkit Hunka and the Rab Storm and made a few comments about them here - http://www.ni-wild.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1646.msg15615#msg15615
The already mentioned Alpkit Hunka is hard to beat, although I'm currently using a Rab Storm. The Storm is much more spacious than the standard Alpkit Hunka, with plenty of room to fit a self-inflating mat and sleeping bag inside the bivvy. I found the Alpkit Hunka was a bit too tight with anything other than a very slim sleeping mat, but then I could probably do with loosing a few inches around the chest and waist Mind you, I'm not really making much use of the extra space in the Rab Storm now that I've decided life is much simpler when you sleep with the sleeping mat on the outside of the bag!
I never got to test the Alpkit Hunka in proper rain, but I did a summit bivvy of Binnian in my Rab, under no shelter in the rain. Stayed pretty dry, any moisture on the inside of the bivvy was from condensation which is inevitable when you seal it up to try and keep the rain out. I was certainly happy with it, felt it did the job well.
The one thing I can't get used to with the Rab is the zip around hood. I find the material always ends up flapping around your face, whereas the Hunka has a drawstring which allows you to cinch it up nicely around your face leaving plenty of space for an air hole. Good thing about the Rab Storm is that it is usually stocked locally so can be picked up handy.
Personally if I was sleeping out with no tarp I'd prefer the Rab Storm for the extra space and the fact I can protect myself better from the weather with the zip closure. For under a tarp I'd prefer the Alpkit Hunka as the drawstring closure means you can keep the bivvy open around your face allowing for less condensation and of course you arent worried about the weather under the tarp so much.