Northern Ireland Outdoors Forum - Hiking, camping and more

General => Meets, places, trips and reviews => Topic started by: chris on November 22, 2010

Title: Scottish winter
Post by: chris on November 22, 2010
Well since we own all the guchi kit under the sun who's up for a bit of Scottish winter mountaineering? I'm looking at all those guys with their changabangs, spitz's, latoks, morpheus' and ogres!We'll even let you come if you own a North face coat. Dates and location to be arranged (all suggestions welcome) but Jan or Feb would be good.
Should give plenty of time to gather the necessary gear and the new daddies amongst us plenty of time to book it off, in fact why not ask for that as your Christmas pressie!
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: suspectmonkey on November 22, 2010
Would you believe I got a new jacket just before all this smoke damaged frenzy kicked off :(  Although in fairness I was pretty set on this one so no amount of Mountain Equipment gear could have made me change my mind!

Matthew, look away now, worried you might get too excited by the brand name ;D

(http://www.mountainleisureperth.com/pub/files/Products/Rab/shell/.thumbnails/1268736588_demand_pullon_maya_w500_h500.jpg)
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: chris on November 22, 2010
very nice, I love rab stuff too, fits me better than mountain equipment. Have you had eVent before?
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: suspectmonkey on November 22, 2010
very nice, I love rab stuff too, fits me better than mountain equipment. Have you had eVent before?

Nope, first eVent jacket!  Wasn't exactly delighted with Gore Performance shell so hopefully will be a lot happier with this!  It's nearly 500g lighter than my old TNF jacket as well, although in fairness it's rather spartan when it comes to features :D
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: whoRya on November 23, 2010
I love the idea of the Rab e-vent gear and the reviews are often very positive for them.  But I found when I tried the stuff on there was one thing that I thought would bug me.  There is a lot of zip and when you have it zipped down to about collar bone height it meant there were two large flaps of material either side.  The fact that it has cut down on weight and not put a strengthened collar on it compounds that.

I'd imagine for walking a Scottish winter with it fully zipped it wouldn't matter, but I thought it could be annoying up the Mournes when it's not too cold and the material is flapping about.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: chris on November 23, 2010
Its the same stuff as gore, basically the guys who invented it decided they could make it more breathable and Al said it couldn't be done so they parted ways and walla! Basically its a more expanded version of the ptfe membrane (the holes are bigger) and instead of "painting" on the thin layer that protects it from all the nasty oils our skin produces its impregnated with a gas version.
All that said its supposed to be more breathable than gore (pro shell this is) although the down sides are you need to wash it ALOT more (due to the pores in the membrane being larger and therefore more likely to clog with dirt) its also lets the wind in more than gore (again due to the nature of the membrane).
Don't worry tho, as long as you wash it, you'll be fine! I got an eVent jacket too.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: RedLeader on November 23, 2010
So is eVent better than Goretex Pro Shell?

I was pretty disapppointed that the Mountain Equipment jacket I bought had no pit zips - I thought that was a big part of helping breathability when you were exercising hard.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: twentyclicks on November 23, 2010
I'm about to order a fair bit of gucci kit on work pro-deal and will definitely be looking to break it in before taking it to the alps in March  8)
Scotland would be awesome - I'm sure I can get a weekend off work once the sales have died down!

What's the likely plan?
Travel Fri eve, late car camp, Sat/Sun hardcore & awesome outdoors stuff, Travel Sun afternoon/eve?
Would we need 3 full days to allow for travel (winter roads/ferry)... I could probably do Fri-Sun, or Sat-Mon?

Which area/route does anyone fancy? (e.g. winter CMD arete?)

Any preferred dates? (thus far I am probably flexible from 22nd or 29th Jan onwards).


ps. Nice jacket Suspect, and Chris with the Latok... was my contender but Montane fit me better so Venture it is.  Will be interesting to try the eVent.  We do have a Mammut in work that is just superlative, but it is super crinkly and £330 so sense is trying to prevail!
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: chris on November 23, 2010
So is eVent better than Goretex Pro Shell?

I was pretty disapppointed that the Mountain Equipment jacket I bought had no pit zips - I thought that was a big part of helping breathability when you were exercising hard.

it's one of these things, what's better down or synthetic, gas or multi fuel, gore or event. It'll go on for ever! Both gore and event have their pro's and con's. Same with pit zips, if your sweating more than the ret of your jacket and you open your pit zips your just gonna get wet from the rain, keep them closed and you'll get wet from sweat!
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: twentyclicks on November 23, 2010
So is eVent better than Goretex Pro Shell?

I was pretty disapppointed that the Mountain Equipment jacket I bought had no pit zips - I thought that was a big part of helping breathability when you were exercising hard.

eVent tends to be a bit softer and gets more so with washing (which it needs more).  As to what works better, that is argued ad infinitum in pubs and forums the world over.  Paramo or Ventile is more breathable but they both have drawbacks that often rule them out i.e. when Ventile finally saturates it can take forever to dry out/becomes heavy & paramo is heavy, warm and heavy rain does push through, although the fabric just pumps it out again as soon as it has a chance.  I wanted a paramo, but I honestly run very hot when active (and prefer to feel cool) and chill when chilling, so better to carry insulation for rest stops and a light shell for only the worst weather.

I don't like pit zips personally - affect the arm movements, less packability, extra weight, will let water in if open in rain.  Soft-shell or wind top and get wet is more comfortable if working that hard.  If it's not raining, heat rises so opening the front zip will vent better anyway.  IMO.  It's a tough jacket you've picked up - I've seen some trashed ones that keep going, and excellent hood by all accounts.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: RedLeader on November 23, 2010
Think we need a jacket thread rather than hijacking the Scotland thread. I'll throw one up.

Thread is here:
http://www.ni-wild.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1543.0
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: LandyLiam on November 23, 2010
Me, my north face jacket, and more importantly, my land rover are tempted on a scottish weekender. What sort of activity are we talking about, any location in mind?
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: chris on November 23, 2010
Me, my north face jacket, and more importantly, my land rover are tempted on a scottish weekender. What sort of activity are we talking about, any location in mind?

Nothing too crazy. I had looked at the likes of the CMD or something along those lines but I think most people would be put off if we had to start using crampons etc on a ridge! (Although shout if I'm wrong ;D)
Probably just hit an area with a good few peaks, do a bit of Munro bagging and hopefully we'll get some proper Scottish winter conditions!
The guys from the nevis trip will know what I'm talking about here:
I was thinking of the area south of sugar lumps, the ring of steel or what ever it was called, looked to be a good few peaks and some arêtes.

What would most people be up for? Walking with a touch of easy climbing?
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: MG1 on November 23, 2010
I think Neil renamed it as the circle of death :D

If i can get permission from the boss i'd be up for it.

There s the Cairngorms as well. Some crackin hills.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: LandyLiam on November 23, 2010
Most of that meant nothing too me except the last line "walking with a touch of easy climbing" which sounds good to me. I've no climbing gear so might have to pass on that bit but happy to watch.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: chris on November 23, 2010
Most of that meant nothing too me except the last line "walking with a touch of easy climbing" which sounds good to me. I've no climbing gear so might have to pass on that bit but happy to watch.

There in lies the difficulty, If we were climbing something it'd most likely be to move onto another area so if you were watching, you'd just get left behind!

I think Neil renamed it as the circle of death :D

If i can get permission from the boss i'd be up for it.

There s the Cairngorms as well. Some crackin hills.

I don't mind where we are as long as its snowy and there are adverse weather conditions!
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: suspectmonkey on November 23, 2010
I'd love to do some winter walking, but to be honest I'd be way out of my depth.  I'm all for learning through experience but I'd honestly be a bit overwhelmed learning ropes, crampons and ice-axes on a snow covered Scottish ridge.  I certainly wouldn't fancy trying to learn an ice-axe arrest through (unexpected) experience :D

Of course we could always consider doing a trip to Scotland with two groups; one group doing more low level stuff and the other group hitting the ridges etc.  That way we can still all enjoy the craic of the trip and meetup for apres walk drinkies!

I do have another suggestion... how about we all head over to the Cairngorms?  Those that feel confident can tackle the classic winter routes, and those of us who dont feel we have the skillz can maybe do a weekend course with Glenmore Lodge?  Thinking something like this: http://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/course-wintermountain-skills-display.asp?course_id=38
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: LennyJ1 on November 23, 2010
£225 is abit steep (no pun intended)
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: suspectmonkey on November 23, 2010
£225 is abit steep (no pun intended)

For a full weekends accomodation, food, tuition, hire of equipment and transport?  I spent more than £225 for a weekend in an Edinburgh hostel during the summer!  I think the prices are reasonable for what you get, and the quality of the training at Glenmore Lodge seems exceptional.

Theres an interesting account of the winter skills course here if anyone is interested - http://www.zen84841.zen.co.uk/glenmorelodge2009.htm
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: RedLeader on November 23, 2010
I could be convinced into this but like Jonny, wouldn't want to get into anything too hardy. Some winter walking, hiking and camping would be nice.

I'd love to do some winter walking, but to be honest I'd be way out of my depth.  I'm all for learning through experience but I'd honestly be a bit overwhelmed learning ropes, crampons and ice-axes on a snow covered Scottish ridge.  I certainly wouldn't fancy trying to learn an ice-axe arrest through (unexpected) experience :D

Of course we could always consider doing a trip to Scotland with two groups; one group doing more low level stuff and the other group hitting the ridges etc.  That way we can still all enjoy the craic of the trip and meetup for apres walk drinkies!

I do have another suggestion... how about we all head over to the Cairngorms?  Those that feel confident can tackle the classic winter routes, and those of us who dont feel we have the skillz can maybe do a weekend course with Glenmore Lodge?  Thinking something like this: http://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/course-wintermountain-skills-display.asp?course_id=38
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: twentyclicks on November 23, 2010
I'm up for anything (except the course as that's what I'm doing in the Alps).
I should have crampons and an axe.  No ice climbing this time, but I will have a harness if anyone wants to rope up (no crevasses so prob not necessary).  Some stiff trekking and a proper winter camp will no doubt exhilarate us sufficiently, but if there is a ridge/scramble breakaway team I'd not say no.

Anyone not wanting full crampons, we have these Kahoola things which are like little teeth on a chain can go over boots, shoes... only £45. Yer man Petesy reckons they're the biz for UK winter.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: chris on November 23, 2010
Yeah that's all this was meant to be, a chance to test out kit and get cold and wet in bonnie Scotland! The cairngorms are looking good.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: Matthew on November 23, 2010
Matthew, look away now, worried you might get too excited by the brand name ;D

[

Ha ha very good. I just like their stuff, it works for me.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: twentyclicks on November 23, 2010
Yeah that's all this was meant to be, a chance to test out kit and get cold and wet in bonnie Scotland! The cairngorms are looking good.

I've never been there so that would be brilliant.  I saw a photo of the Cairngorm plateau the other day - it really is a wild area.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: LandyLiam on November 23, 2010
Why hasn't anyone mentioned skiing yet  ;D not really a need for that on a NI forum  :'( I could be tempted by a weekends snowboarding course, I've seen them advertised at Aviemore for about £150 (with hostel accomodation, buts thats too soft for you lot :D )
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: MG1 on November 23, 2010
Aviemore and the Cairngorms are amazing. I've stayed in Aviemore bout 5 or 6 times. The activities in the area are amazing. Its a mountain sport mecca. 

I think we need a meet to arrange a route for both groups and see what everyone wants to get out of the trip?

Oh aye i've the go ahead so i am in.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: RedLeader on November 24, 2010
Cairngorms must be a right drive from Stranraer
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: chris on November 24, 2010
Aviemore and the Cairngorms are amazing. I've stayed in Aviemore bout 5 or 6 times. The activities in the area are amazing. Its a mountain sport mecca.  

I think we need a meet to arrange a route for both groups and see what everyone wants to get out of the trip?

Oh aye i've the go ahead so i am in.

Sounds good.
Everyone who is provisionally up for this add your name to the list and we can sort groups locations etc from there

Chris
MG1
Landyliam
Twenty clicks
J (?)
Suspect monkey (?)
Cairngorms must be a right drive from Stranraer
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: Tim on November 24, 2010
I'm definitely up to this but will have to wait and see what I can afford once you get more solid plans sorted out. Haven't got much experience in the climbing department yet and I'm not sure winter in Scotland would be the time or place to learn, as much as I'd like to. If I have the money then I'll definitely be in for something though.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: Scribble on November 24, 2010
Hopefully get a bit of practice in the snow this wkend if it arrives in the mournes , my mate txt me to say rathfriland had a light coating this morning  ;D
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: LennyJ1 on November 24, 2010
I'm going to the mornes for a training walk with the people I am going to Kili with, Give ya a nod if I see ya.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: chris on November 24, 2010
Lol. Right basically I had a chat with one of the guys in work today and he said that if I go to Scotland with no winter mountaineering experience its pretty much a suicide mission! So I think those of us who are planning on going would be wise to look into some sort of course, whether its tullymore or Scotland.
Other than that I know a mountain leader who says he would charge £140 for the day and show us all we need to know (depending on what we get out of a "proper" course I'd be more inclined to give a mate some work). Bear in mind that this trip will probably require the use of at least an ice axe (which you can pick up for around £30) who would still be up for it?
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: LandyLiam on November 24, 2010
Is that £140 each?  :o

I'd be happy to go along for a lowland excursion and let the extremists do their climby stuff, but after working outdoors all morning and my wee toes getting very sore with cold i'm not so sure if i'm up to this winter camping  :(
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: MG1 on November 25, 2010
I think it £140 for a group. I'm still up for this.

It would be good to get a bit of training.

If we got some snow in the Mournes we could do the training there.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: twentyclicks on November 25, 2010
I'd be happy to go along for a lowland excursion and let the extremists do their climby stuff

Climbing is something entirely different that I imagine wouldn't be covered by a safety intro.
Navigation, correct use of tools (crampons/axe), cold/heat management, danger awareness and emergency procedures are probably the main bases.

Avalanches occur mostly on moderate 20-40 degree slopes (although even last year there wasn't enough snow for this to be an issue in the Mournes - still stabilised by the heather in most parts).

My "BMC winter essentials" DVD is actually on eBay at the moment if anyone wants it.

If it's only going to be £20 each or so, I'd be up for a little primer.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: 666_pack on November 25, 2010
any chance of posting a link to the DVD?
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: twentyclicks on November 25, 2010
any chance of posting a link to the DVD?

Sorry, someone just bought it this morning so prob why you couldn't find it. Went very quick, I should have put a higher price on it  :D
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: chris on November 25, 2010
So what are everyones thoughts then? would anyone be up for the course suspect monkey mentioned?

http://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/course-wintermountain-skills-display.asp?course_id=38

Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: LandyLiam on November 25, 2010
If dates suited i'd be up for it
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: twentyclicks on November 25, 2010
So what are everyones thoughts then? would anyone be up for the course suspect monkey mentioned?

Not me. Cant do another full course, already blowing my motorcycle procedes on gear and the Alps course (and have minimal income)!
Could split the cost of a day guide, or just go for a 'tramp & camp' (purely outdoors terms, no sexual connotations  :o ).  Don't let that stop any other plans, I'm even happy to tag a lift and solo.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: MG1 on November 26, 2010
The course sounds good, but if we can learn the basics from your mate i'd prefer to do that.

It means we're not tied down till a 2 day course which is going to take up all our time in Scotland.

And its cheaper.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: suspectmonkey on November 26, 2010
If its £140 for a group I'd be happy enough to give that a go and take it from there.  Only thing is it's probably fairly pointless doing it at the Tollymore Centre/Mournes unless they are covered in snow at the time.  Not too much point going through the theory if you don't get a chance to put it into practice...

Glenmore Lodge would be my preference, but to be honest I might struggle to get the money together for it, especially considering the courses generally run not long after Christmas and we are all likely to be skint ;)
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: MG1 on November 26, 2010
The cost is always going to be a factor and the lower i can keep the cost the less grieve i'll get for going. ;D
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: MG1 on November 26, 2010
Heres another course in the area slightly cheaper

http://www.activeoutdoorpursuits.com/Default.aspx?page=WinterMountaineeringCourses&gclid=CLvJ6q7dvqUCFUhO4QodOFQoYQ&ContentItemId=59 (http://www.activeoutdoorpursuits.com/Default.aspx?page=WinterMountaineeringCourses&gclid=CLvJ6q7dvqUCFUhO4QodOFQoYQ&ContentItemId=59)
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: 666_pack on November 26, 2010
so is the plan to do a winter skills course?
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: MG1 on November 26, 2010
The plan was just to hit the hills. But Chris s mate told him we might die without proper training.

I don't think anythings set in stone yet.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: Tim on November 27, 2010
The course sounds good, but if we can learn the basics from your mate i'd prefer to do that.

It means we're not tied down till a 2 day course which is going to take up all our time in Scotland.

And its cheaper.

I'm with MG1 on this one, purely for the cost factor really.
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: suspectmonkey on December 06, 2010
Other than that I know a mountain leader who says he would charge £140 for the day and show us all we need to know (depending on what we get out of a "proper" course I'd be more inclined to give a mate some work). Bear in mind that this trip will probably require the use of at least an ice axe (which you can pick up for around £30) who would still be up for it?

Do you think there is any chance we could get a day with a ML organised in the Mournes soon whilst there is plenty of snow in the hills?  Surely its a cracking opportunity at the moment to learn how to wield an ice axe locally without having to get on a boat?  If we can do it, I'm in :)
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: Tim on December 06, 2010
Do you think there is any chance we could get a day with a ML organised in the Mournes soon whilst there is plenty of snow in the hills?  Surely its a cracking opportunity at the moment to learn how to wield an ice axe locally without having to get on a boat?  If we can do it, I'm in :)

I would definitely be up for this
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: MG1 on December 06, 2010
I'd be up for it too but do we need the crampons and ice axe?

Or are they supplied?
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: suspectmonkey on December 07, 2010
I reckon I could stretch to buying an ice axe, but I wouldn't want to go down the crampon route as my boots aren't even rated. I assume plenty of folk do winter walking with just an ice axe though?
Title: Re: Scottish winter
Post by: twentyclicks on December 07, 2010
The axe is more important- for self-arrest, step cutting & emergency belays.  Crampons are only really for hard ice or steep climbing.

Kahtoola's will fit any boot/shoe and are a decent half-way house for those times you need extra bite when hill walking in the UK.