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[RedLeader]

So I finally bought a decent quality (if slightly smokey smelling) jacket. Its a Mountain Equipment Ogre and raises more questions than it answers.

So what are everyones top tips / experiences with choosing jackets. I'm thinking purely for waterproofing when active rather than sitting round the campfire. A few things to ponder are manufacturer, goretex / goretex proshell / event, zips, hoods, general ventilation.

[twentyclicks]

Fit:
Use - some people like a longer jacket for walking as it better protects the crotch/top of legs, but for cycling or climbing a shorter front is needed so it is not in the way.  Likewise, if wearing a harness or hip belt, higher pockets remain accessible. 
Long arms help climbers and cyclists who are reaching more.
A larger hood is needed to fit over a helmet so consider this for mountaineering.
A half-zip smock is lighter, and the different pocket/vent options are favoured by some.

Material:
eVent tends to be a bit softer and gets more so with washing (which it needs more).  As to whether Gore or eVent works better, that is argued ad infinitum in pubs and forums the world over.  I read in a recent magazine that the Gore Paclite is more prone to condensation than the proshell.
Paramo or Ventile is more breathable but they both have drawbacks that often rule them out i.e. when Ventile finally saturates it can take forever to dry out/becomes heavy & paramo is heavy, warm and heavy rain does push through, although the fabric just pumps it out again as soon as it has a chance.  I wanted a paramo, but I honestly run very hot when active (and prefer to feel cool) and chill when chilling, so better to carry insulation for rest stops and a light shell for only the worst weather.
Ventile is perhaps more robust to flying embers!

Extra features:
I don't like pit zips personally - affect the arm movements, less packability, extra weight, will let water in if open in rain.  Soft-shell or wind top and get wet is more comfortable if working that hard.  If it's not raining, heat rises so opening the front zip will vent better anyway.
Some chest pockets have mesh lining to be used for ventilation, some are sealed so that no water can leak through.
Napolean style pockets are a little easier to put stuff in as you naturally reach across the body, but are no good for handwarming.  Can the pocket hold an OS map? Is there a clip maybe to secure a compass or ski-pass?
Fleece collar or at least beard guard area improves comfort on the neck.  Some fixed hood mountain jackets have no structured collar and are designed to come high up the chin when zipped - very functional but not to everyones comfort for less particular activities.
Hoods should move well with the head. A stiffened peak helps keep drips off the eyes, a wired peak even better for fit/strength.  Face and volume adjustment help hood stay in place.  'Captive adjusters' stop the wind whipping the excess cord in your face.
Hem/waistcords help stop drafts by improving fit.


That's about all my thoughts on hard-shell jackets, and although fairly comprehensive, I'm sure there is more. 80% of the time I don't wear a waterproof.  Another 15% I am very happy with my £30 Trekmates jacket.  Only for the most hardcore and feature specific am I getting a Montane eVent shell.  But that's my experiences, requirements and accepted compromises accounted for.  We could start a thread on soft-shell too, and base-layers!

Stay safe, stay comfortable 

[suspectmonkey]

Material:
eVent tends to be a bit softer and gets more so with washing (which it needs more).

Just on that point, when I bought my jacket I asked the store if I just wash it regularly with Nikwax Tech Wash as I'd been doing in the past with my Gore jacket.  I was told that apparently eVent are now saying you can wash the jacket using liquid detergent and to check their website for the most up to date info.  So according to the website:

Regular washing of your eVent garment will enhance product performance.  Your garment may be machine washed in warm water (110F / 40C) with liquid detergent, and we recommend a second rinse to remove all traces of detergent from the fabric.  You may also use Nikwax® Tech Wash or Granger's XT Proofer.

DWR finish degrades over time and will occasionally need to be replenished.  We suggest treating the DWR finish at the same time as your regular garment washings.  Once the garment has been washed, we recommend using Granger's aftercare products or Nikwax® TX-Direct to completely restore surface water-repellency.

I always thought that liquid detergent was meant to reduce the effectiveness of the DWR finish, hence I've always been encouraged to use a product like Tech Wash instead.  Reading the info on the eVent website it looks like you can wash away using liquid detergent, although perhaps the recommendation to rinse the jacket afterwards is to ensure no residue is left effecting performance.  Presumably then there is little to no difference to using Tech Wash over liquid detergent, other than Tech Wash doesnt require a seperate rinse?  Would save me spending money on Tech Wash if that was the case, although on an expensive jacket maybe its worth using the "proper" stuff?

I took the quotations from this page - http://www.eventfabrics.com/care_and_maintenance.php

[chris]

Pretty much what 20 clicks said. Although I don't know if agree with this event is softer/less durable argument. Surely the durability of the jacket boils down mainly to the face fabric, obviously pack light will be less durable than pro shell but 3 layer event and 3 layer gore-tex are in essence the same thing.
The main thing that you need to remember is that every jacket has a limit (the RET) It doesn't matter if its precip or pro shell if you produce more moisture than the jacket can handle you will get wet!
As for your Ogre J. I don't think you'll be disappointed!

[twentyclicks]

Sorry - I literally meant softer feel/drape; not implying any less durability.

[Matthew]

Material:
eVent tends to be a bit softer and gets more so with washing (which it needs more).

Just on that point, when I bought my jacket I asked the store if I just wash it regularly with Nikwax Tech Wash as I'd been doing in the past with my Gore jacket.  I was told that apparently eVent are now saying you can wash the jacket using liquid detergent and to check their website for the most up to date info.  So according to the website:

Regular washing of your eVent garment will enhance product performance.  Your garment may be machine washed in warm water (110F / 40C) with liquid detergent, and we recommend a second rinse to remove all traces of detergent from the fabric.  You may also use Nikwax® Tech Wash or Granger's XT Proofer.

DWR finish degrades over time and will occasionally need to be replenished.  We suggest treating the DWR finish at the same time as your regular garment washings.  Once the garment has been washed, we recommend using Granger's aftercare products or Nikwax® TX-Direct to completely restore surface water-repellency.

I always thought that liquid detergent was meant to reduce the effectiveness of the DWR finish, hence I've always been encouraged to use a product like Tech Wash instead.  Reading the info on the eVent website it looks like you can wash away using liquid detergent, although perhaps the recommendation to rinse the jacket afterwards is to ensure no residue is left effecting performance.  Presumably then there is little to no difference to using Tech Wash over liquid detergent, other than Tech Wash doesnt require a seperate rinse?  Would save me spending money on Tech Wash if that was the case, although on an expensive jacket maybe its worth using the "proper" stuff?

I took the quotations from this page - http://www.eventfabrics.com/care_and_maintenance.php

Most of my kit is E Vent and I find it works well for me. As for the washing front, mine just gets bunged in with regular washing powder on my return home and dried as normal ready for the next outing. I will occasionally, when the notion takes me re proof my kit with some of the spray on stuff but that's all it gets. So far so good.

[chris]

Material:
eVent tends to be a bit softer and gets more so with washing (which it needs more).

Just on that point, when I bought my jacket I asked the store if I just wash it regularly with Nikwax Tech Wash as I'd been doing in the past with my Gore jacket.  I was told that apparently eVent are now saying you can wash the jacket using liquid detergent and to check their website for the most up to date info.  So according to the website:

Regular washing of your eVent garment will enhance product performance.  Your garment may be machine washed in warm water (110F / 40C) with liquid detergent, and we recommend a second rinse to remove all traces of detergent from the fabric.  You may also use Nikwax® Tech Wash or Granger's XT Proofer.

Its fine to wash it with detergent but for proofing use nikwax and avoid fabric conditioners and bleach.

DWR finish degrades over time and will occasionally need to be replenished.  We suggest treating the DWR finish at the same time as your regular garment washings.  Once the garment has been washed, we recommend using Granger's aftercare products or Nikwax® TX-Direct to completely restore surface water-repellency.

I always thought that liquid detergent was meant to reduce the effectiveness of the DWR finish, hence I've always been encouraged to use a product like Tech Wash instead.  Reading the info on the eVent website it looks like you can wash away using liquid detergent, although perhaps the recommendation to rinse the jacket afterwards is to ensure no residue is left effecting performance.  Presumably then there is little to no difference to using Tech Wash over liquid detergent, other than Tech Wash doesnt require a seperate rinse?  Would save me spending money on Tech Wash if that was the case, although on an expensive jacket maybe its worth using the "proper" stuff?

I took the quotations from this page - http://www.eventfabrics.com/care_and_maintenance.php

[twentyclicks]

Very interesting info Chris.

Matthew, how is the 'beading/DWR' on your jacket?  Do you get any residue from using powder?

Even with tech wash/reproofer, I have found no real improvement until heat was applied (stuck the jacket in the tumble drier for 15mins - less risky than the iron!).  Saying that my jacket didn't get much abuse at all, but only got washed maybe every 2 years.

I've always told people to run an empty wash first to clear any residue, use tech wash or pure liquid soap (powder can leave residue), and a mild tumble to reactivate the DWR - using reproof if necessary.

Be careful with the heat - too much can damage the taped seams, welded construction, or even some fabric.  I always test the beading after 15mins, and give it another 5mins if I think it can be better.  I use 'high' on our dryer as it is old and 'low' is barely warm at all.  If you have 'medium' it may be a safe start point.

[suspectmonkey]

Is "pure liquid soap" the kind of thing you can pick up in Tesco?  Any particular brand?  You can tell I'm not very familiar with washing machines

Just curious to find something that is a bit cheaper than Tech Wash.  Even buying 1 litre bottles works out at £1 per 100ml.  Makes petrol seem cheap  

[suspectmonkey]

When I was choosing my jacket there were two products in mind; eVent and Paramo.  I narrowed my list down to two eVent jackets, the Rab Demand smock and the Montane Venture.  I also quite fancied the Paramo Velez Light smock.  I had already decided I wanted a lightweight jacket as it tends to live in my rucksack and only sees light of day when its actually raining.  I was also slightly swayed by Ronald Turnbulls view on the matter:

A substantial breathable jacket in cheerful crimson or purple, with armpit zips, useful pockets, taped seams and all, weighs about 1.1kg - and when it isn't raining, all that weight is in your rucksack.  Worse, when it has been raining, all that weight is in your rucksack wet.

But wear a single-skin waterproof and a fleece underneath - when it isn't raining the waterproof stuffs away in the lid rather than half the sack, and the fleece is still on and drying in the breeze.

So I tried on all three jackets.  The Rab Demand was the most basic, but by far the lightest (280g!).  The Montane Venture was slightly heavier but added some extra features such as adjustable cuffs, full length zip, decent pockets etc.  It was also a bit more expensive.  The Paramo Velez Light was the most expensive jacket, but the most luxurious!  It had a lovely soft touch fabric more akin to a softshell, a fantastic chest pocket that would easily swallow an OS map and a great hand warming pocket inside.

Unfortunately the Montane Venture was ruled out straight away as it was just too neat on me.  Its quite a short jacket and I found it too tight across the shoulders and chest, but it would probably suit someone of more slender build like twentyclicks   That left the Rab and the Paramo which despite both being smocks are poles apart in terms of features etc. 

I decided that in horrible conditions I would much rather be wearing the Paramo in pouring rain all day than the Rab as it was very comfortable.  But the Rab is a lot lighter, smaller pack size and I wanted to remain optimistic I wouldn't be stuck in the rain all day!  Plus, with Paramo's reputation for being quite warm I was worried that outside of Oct - May I would just find it too hot to don the Paramo and probably end up walking with no jacket on anyway.  So I bought the Rab Demand smock and now am just waiting for a rainy day to test it out!

That and the fact the Rab looks pretty darned good in "Maya Blue"  

[Matthew]

Very interesting info Chris.

Matthew, how is the 'beading/DWR' on your jacket?  Do you get any residue from using powder?

the jacket works well and really sheets the water, once washed it gets a good rinse and as far as i can tell there is nothing left, just a nice clean smell.

[whoRya]

Enjoying this thread as I'm in the market for a new coat.  I always thought I wouldn't have a problem picking a coat until I went to do so.  Been in all the usual shops a few times and no further on.

I think I'm looking for a one-fits-all coat.  Breathable, packable, waterproof (within its limitations), not too long, not too short, looks smart without being uber-cool (wish to avoid before-time dating), to suit summer showers and cold crisp winter days alike.  I think it is possible to get it all, but at top end prices (?).  I tried working from cheaper jackets up but found there are just so many to choose from.  I suppose it may be easier to work from the top down, compromising on some features until I get to a point where I really want a feature and am prepared to pay for it.

I was hoping a consensus would form from reading posts on the forum, that's blown out of the water now since the smoke damage sale and now half the forumers probably have about three separate jackets to suit all occasions!  I'll keep reading with interest and look forward to more views being posted.

[Matthew]

I think I'm looking for a one-fits-all coat.  Breathable, packable, waterproof (within its limitations), not too long, not too short, looks smart without being uber-cool (wish to avoid before-time dating), to suit summer showers and cold crisp winter days alike. 

I thought that it mattered what kit looked like, colours etc for a while and was worried that stuff would not match. At the end of the day, for me it is a question of does the colour/style matter or does it do its job well.

I am sure everyone will give different advice based in their own experiences with manufacturers or items and it is bound to be confusing. Get into some shops, try as many on as possible see what you like and go from there.

Matthew

[whoRya]

Just remembered about my waterproof coat when I was doing DOE, it said Farrans across the back of it

[chris]

Enjoying this thread as I'm in the market for a new coat.  I always thought I wouldn't have a problem picking a coat until I went to do so.  Been in all the usual shops a few times and no further on.

I think I'm looking for a one-fits-all coat.  Breathable, packable, waterproof (within its limitations), not too long, not too short, looks smart without being uber-cool (wish to avoid before-time dating), to suit summer showers and cold crisp winter days alike.  I think it is possible to get it all, but at top end prices (?).  I tried working from cheaper jackets up but found there are just so many to choose from.  I suppose it may be easier to work from the top down, compromising on some features until I get to a point where I really want a feature and am prepared to pay for it.

Spitz jacket. Problem solved! Just don't get it in black.

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