Northern Ireland Outdoors Forum - Hiking, camping and more
Outdoor Activities => Northern Ireland Camping and Bushcraft => Topic started by: Paul72 on November 03, 2010
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Folks, I have decided to get myself a proper knife for bushcrafting (probably a Mora) instead of fiddling around with crappy penkifes etc. Question is do current knife laws make it difficult to buy these by mail order and what is the situation regarding having one on your person when out and about?
Might seem a silly question but i don't want to fall foul of the law
Cheers
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Top question, suprised it hasn't come up before.
As I understand it as long as the knife is under a certain length and has a folding or fixed blade you will have no probs ordering it online (although eBay banned all knife sales so don't look there - someone has to think of the children!).
However, carrying / using said knife is a totally different kettle of swimmy things. Basically if the rozzers see you with it / turn it up in a search then if you can't give a valid reason for needing it at the that time then you would likely be in hot water. My take is if you're in the remote outdoors then you should be fine, if you're in a nightclub then probably not. I suspect that it would be totally down to the sense of the plod that was doing the asking.
If you're after a recommendation, the Frosts Mora is a top starter bushcraft knife and very reasonably priced around the £10 mark.
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Beat me to it RedLeader! Mail order ok. Having it on you ok if circumstances reasonable.
3.5" blade is in my head somewhere - think that's about the biggest pocket knife you would get i.e. might reasonably have on you just incase...for whittling or emergencies. Anything bigger would need to be in context like work or camping use. A nightclub would prob be inappropriate for either.
Happy knife shopping!
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Thanks guys, I'm thinking of this Mora: http://www.greenmanbushcraft.co.uk/cutting-tools/knives/frosts-mora-bushcraft-training-knife-high-carbon-clipper.htm
A good price I think
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I have that one - It's very popular for good reason! Not that I'm a knife expert, but it fits the sheath well, is comfortable and cuts nicely. Easy to sharpen too.
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Decided on one from Ray Mears website. Costs a couple of quid more but it has his logo on it, has good reviews and I've bought from there before so I can trust it.
http://www.raymears.com/Bushcraft_Product/399-Mora-Training-Knife-Clipper/
Now, I'll just need to keep it out of sight from SWMBO
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Thats the one I have. Solid knife for the sort of messing I'm doing.
Decided on one from Ray Mears website. Costs a couple of quid more but it has his logo on it, has good reviews and I've bought from there before so I can trust it.
http://www.raymears.com/Bushcraft_Product/399-Mora-Training-Knife-Clipper/
Now, I'll just need to keep it out of sight from SWMBO
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Ditto (we must have all found the same knife review :) ) Mine cost about £10 as well.
(to my shame I've let mine Carbon Steel one get corroded, brown marks and bubbles on the blade)
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You can't go wrong with a Mora. Axminster are selling plastic handled versions for under £6.00 at the minute. As I understand it, it's legal to have any knife on you as long as you have "Good reason" for having it. Travelling to, taking part in and returning home from a Bushcraft type of activity would be deemed as good reason for having a fixed blade or lockable folding knife with you but don't, as I have heard of from somewhere else, strap it to your belt and then stop of at Tesco on your way to the woods and do your shopping for the weekend with your Mora on your belt. You don't need a knife on you to do your shopping and the Police would probably take a dim view of it.
By the way, an "everyday carry" penknife is a sub 3 inch non locking folding knife.
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Where do machetes/parangs etc fall under knife laws? I see you can still buy them even though they're definitely longer than the legally allowed blade.
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Knife law seems to be a bit vague, you can carry a sub 3" penknife on you no problem but it seems to be that if you take it outside its instantly deemed an "offensive weapon"! As for the likes of machetes etc they seem to fall under the "what if I want a bigger Knife" category which as far as I could make out says as long as you have just cause to carry it, you can. The example they give is that a chef can large knives around as long as he's travelling to and from work (not really sure why he would need to though!)
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to my shame I've let mine Carbon Steel one get corroded, brown marks and bubbles on the blade
I went for the stainless steel Mora, as I'd heard that stainless steel needs less care then carbon steel to keep it corrosion free. I bought mine from Springfields and whilst I'd never purchased from them before they delivered very quickly.
http://www.springfields.co.uk/knives-multitools/helle-knives/?id=4856
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UK/NI knife law can be found if you search for Section 139 I think.
Anyway if your knife has non-locking blade length of 3" or less then you can carry it discretely which means don't pull it out on the bus or in a shop to peel an apple or whatever keep it to yourself as some members of the public freak at the sight of any blade. Any knife with a locking or fixed blade is illegal to carry in a public place, i.e. a small lock knife with a 2" blade is illegal, multi-tools with locking blades are illegal however a swiss army knife with a 3" slip-joint (non-locking blade) is legal. No knives should be carried to football grounds or pubs.
You can buy any knife you want on the internet with the exception of automatics and a few others like polymer constructed (Plastic shiv type and weapons that would sneak through metal detectors).
The law on camping/fishing/outdoors knives is hazy, if you are stopped by the law on your way to a bushcraft meet for example and have a fixed blade mora or whatever depending on the officer and maybe your attitude you could end up in bother or maybe they will accept your good reason for having the knife. Although you need to have it packed inside your rucksack and not dangling from your belt.
My take on it is that if you don't bring yourself to the attention of the police you have nothing to fear for carrying a small pocket knife to carrying a knife in your pack going camping/fishing etc.
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if you don't bring yourself to the attention of the police you have nothing to fear
There's something about that sort of phrase that's just a shade chilling. It sort of legitimises the concept that liberty in general is a bit hazy. Like there are a shitload of laws stopping you doing all sorts of stuff but no-one really knows much about them. Basically if the law decides to take a pop at you they can always find something you're doing wrong. A good example is no-one is really sure whether you are or are not allowed to take photos in a public place in various circumstances.
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Well you aren't really living in a free society. And the (hazy) law on knives is a perfect example of giving the police officer/magistrate the power to decide. Let me clarify my earlier statement.
I carry a Leatherman Wave daily (last 10years) and have never been arrested as I don't cause trouble for people and consider myself a fairly decent person, no-one knows I carry it as I use it discretely for practical purposes as designed. Now if I was to go and get pished and get in a brawl and get arrested the officer would find the Leatherman and charge me for possession of an offensive weapon. Now thats because I was being a drunk brawling idiot and shouldn't have a knife on me. Thats what I mean about bringing yourself to attention of the police. Hope this clarifies it.
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No knives should be carried to football grounds
Hatchets and hammers, stanley knives and spanners is the best way to show them how to fight (how to fight).
My brother was in Nepal years ago and brought me home a Gurkha knife. It's an impressive piece of kit. If you see anyone doing this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPD9LxbgLxU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPD9LxbgLxU) in Donard forest come and say hello. If you see anyone doing it in Shaftesbury Square....run!
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There are regulations regarding blade size etc (even here in England) - but, in general, carrying any blade without good reason may well cause you some issues.
Case in point. The Transport (Railway) police often run operations here, using mobile metal detector arches at exits from railway platforms (sometimes in conjunction with ticket checking). They are looking for blades of all kinds - and if you have one, be prepared to explain yourself. My daughter is an art student in London and regularly carries craft knives/scalpels and scissors (big ones...not nail clippers) She has to also carry her university ID otherwise she will have the blades confiscated (at best), may be arrested and could be charged for carrying an offensive weapon.
The police and the university have agreed - between them - that as long as the student can show university ID and appears to be en route to or from the university, its not an issue. Otherwise etc etc etc.
The times she has been stopped, the peelers have been fine - the blades have been in a protective cover, in the bottom of her bag, covered by a load of other stuff (think 21 year old female student), she has had her ID and been able to explain where she has been/is going to.
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we have to remember there are very good reasons for these laws and i for one am glad to hear people are getting checked for blades as i have kids going out on the town at night and i don't want them near any knifes, sure there will be some inconvenience for the genuine users but if i have to get my knife confinscated for a few days or have to explain myself down at the police station then so be it.
Funnily enough though i've never brought anything worse than a cutlery knife camping, its a damn sharp cutlery knife though ;D
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I think if it is readily to hand or concealed unusually (like in your sock), and you have no valid reason then that's one thing... but if it's in your bag then it's really not going to be used in the heat of the moment.
I agree that the police appear to use their best judgement on this matter, and it's only the scallies that lose their shivs.
As an aside though, the airline restrictions are a bit silly. Check for bombs, yes; but a penknife or nail clippers are easily disarmed with a rolled up in-flight magazine. Quite annoying for those who travel only with hand-luggage. Do they check if people are a kung-fu bad-ass before they board a plane? ???
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but a penknife or nail clippers are easily disarmed with a rolled up in-flight magazine.
Too bad if you're flying Ryan Air ;D
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i remember the airport security trying to confincate my mini nail clippers, when i asked what danger they posed they said it was the wee pull out nail file bit as it was pointy, so i broke it off and gave it to them and they let me bring my nail clippers on board ;D
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I received my new Mora yesterday, it came with a copy of current regulations on knife laws, very responsible of Woodlore and good practice.
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a friend of mine almost got his dad's old police whistle confiscated at airport security because it could potentially be used as a weapon or to cause disruption in-flight.
he refused to hand it over because it has sentimental value, so they weren't going to let him fly.
When the supervisor was called over they were going to side with the security monkey until my friend pointed out that with every passenger knowing full well that there's a light and a whistle attached to every lifejacket under every seat, one more wouldn't make much difference. ::)
Anyhoo,
on the 11th September they didn't use big rambo knives, they were cheap craft knives with stanley-sized blades, so I think it's fair enough to have strict security.
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Anyhoo,
on the 11th September they didn't use big rambo knives, they were cheap craft knives with stanley-sized blades, so I think it's fair enough to have strict security.
I'm up for being the have-a-go hero against the terrorist who tries to take over my plane armed with tweezers and a set of nail-clippers.
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Just remember the paperwork that have come with your knife are english law, the law in NI and the law in england differ greatly mate.
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You are saying the knife law in N.I is different to England? I thought it was the same UK wide, do you have a reference to the N.I specific law?
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NI has alot of specific laws both because of our somewhat violent history and devolution.
You are saying the knife law in N.I is different to England? I thought it was the same UK wide, do you have a reference to the N.I specific law?
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In what way is it different? If posts just say its different its not very useful information, just wondering were you guys saw the N.I law?
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http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/crime-justice-and-the-law/crime-prevention/knives-and-the-law.htm
It is essentially the same, although the penalties may differ where transgression does occur (like in Scotland).
Google is our friend, but those suggesting a difference should have posted links - it keeps the thread useful (especially where safety or legality is concerned) and will help the forum show up in search engines. I forget too.
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Knife law in the UK covers N.I, England, Wales and Scotland with no differences from what I can see. There is no point in posting 'rumours' about different laws in N.I when most people already find it confusing. ???
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It would appear the the law for knives is the same for Northern Ireland as it is for the UK. When I pay more attention, what I was actually thinking of was as far as I am aware the ability to stop and search etc is different for Northern Ireland.
Knives and the law
Knife crime, particularly amongst young people, is in the news almost every day. At the moment, a number of different rules apply to knives and it isn't always immediately clear what is legal and what isn't.
What's legal and what's not?
* it is illegal for any shop to sell a knife of any kind (which includes cutlery and kitchen knives) to anyone under the age of 18
* it is generally an offence to carry a knife in public without good reason or lawful authority, for example, a chef carrying their own knives to and from work
* the maximum penalty for an adult carrying a knife is four years in prison and a fine of £5000
* knives such as a Swiss Army Knife (where the blade folds into the handle), aren't illegal as long as the blade is shorter than three inches (7.62 cm)
Offensive weapons
If a knife is used in a threatening way (even a legal knife, such as a Swiss Army knife), it is regarded as an 'offensive weapon' by the law. This is also the case with everyday objects like screwdrivers - once used in a threatening manner, they are treated as offensive weapons.
It is an offence to carry an offensive weapon in a public place if you don't have a valid reason. This means that carrying something that could be viewed as an offensive weapon, and then using it in a threatening way, could mean that you are prosecuted.
The penalty is up to four years' imprisonment and/or a fine. There is a complete ban on the sale of certain types of knives categorised as offensive weapons, regardless of their use.
These include:
* flick knives - where the blade is hidden inside the handle and shoots out when a button is pressed - these are also called switchblades or automatic knives
* butterfly knives - where the blade is hidden inside a handle that splits in two around it, like wings or the handles swing around the blade to open or close it
* disguised knives - where the blade is hidden inside something, like a belt buckle or fake mobile phone.
Police 'stop and search' powers
Police officers have the right to stop and search any person or vehicle if they suspect an offence. This includes carrying an offensive weapon.
Weapons regarded as offensive include, but are not limited to:
* flick knives
* gravity knives
* knuckle-dusters
* sword-sticks
* samurai swords
* hand-claws
* foot-claws
* belt buckle knives
* push daggers
* butterfly knives
* blowpipes or guns
* kubotan (cylindrical container holding spikes)
* shuriken (also known as death stars or throwing stars)
* telescopic truncheons (automatically extending)
* kusari-gama (sickle attached to a rope, cord or wire)
* kyoketsu shoge (hook-knife attached to a rope, cord or wire)
* kusari (weight attached to a rope, cord or wire)
* disguised knives (lipstick knives for example)
* stealth knives
* straight, side-handled or friction-lock truncheons
http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/crime-justice-and-the-law/crime-prevention-1/knives-and-the-law.htm
Knife law in the UK covers N.I, England, Wales and Scotland with no differences from what I can see. There is no point in posting 'rumours' about different laws in N.I when most people already find it confusing. ???
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Stop and search powers are UK wide. You can be stop and searched in London the same as Belfast.
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I may be way off the mark here but aren't all laws in NI different. Whereas England & Wales have Acts of Parliament we have NI Orders. The Scots have another different system as well.
After reading the details on the following link, I've probably over-simplified it above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_law)
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I thought this thread was about knife carry laws, and how an earlier post (Blackthorn) mentioned the law on knife carry was different here to England, its not, as for the rest of the law I don't know. I think thats a topic for another forum.
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This topic has been discussed to death on so many forums, its easy, if you have to carry a knife put it into your pack dont walk about with it on your belt. If you get searched there will be a reason why explain why you have the knife in your pack, ie camping fishing or whatever. If you must carry a penknife get one which is very small and dosent have a locking blade and keep it in your pocket and dont wave it about in public. I think common sense has to prevail sometime. Expect that if you like to do your shopping with your mora strapped to your belt the police and public will become suspicious and you might end up being arrested (probably right as you have been an arse) and it might take a while to talk yourself out of it. It seems that in england (judging by what other forums have on them) that there are some right numptys who have it in there head that they can do what they want when they want and then they complain when some one calls the police because they are walking about with a bloody foot long knife strapped to their leg or are showing off their latest knife in their local over a few pints! (this isnt a dig at the english just using it as an example). Its discussions like this that prompt so much uncertainty and confusion, if you want to know the real ins and outs go down to your local cop shop and speak to them they will im sure be able to answer your questions and if they cant im sure they will point you in the direction of where you can get the answer. ;D