Northern Ireland Outdoors Forum - Hiking, camping and more
General => General Chat => Topic started by: Dowser on November 23, 2014
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:o I'm totally shocked by this and just can't get my head around why anyone would even consider doing such a thing :o
(http://i.imgur.com/aFzXAfu.jpg)
http://www.thejournal.ie/cross-carrauntoohil-cut-down-1794036-Nov2014/
This was one of the best camping trips I have been on and I will always hold fond memories of the Kerry weekend in my heart:
http://www.ni-wild.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1302.msg12234#msg12234
:'(
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I've been up to the summit a few times and was shocked to hear about the cross.In the 1940's the locals erected a wooden cross which was replaced in 1976 by the destroyed one.Which actually belonged to the locals that payed for it and carried it to the summit with the land owners permission.Dowser that trip to the Reeks looked epic,seen the photos before but it looked like you scrambled across the" big Gun" that one scary ridge.
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Yeah Mourneman, we scrambled the ridge and it was very scary at times for some the group. Not for me though... I'm hard as nails lol!
Since posting my link to the cross being cut down I've been reading a bit more about it and it actually seems to be a very contentious issue. I was expecting everyone to be appalled but, it seems there's a 50:50 mix of opinion regarding it's removal, with many comments saying it should have been cut down years ago. Seems man made objects placed in the wild don't attract a lot of favour with the rambling types.
Now I'm not sure how to feel about the Cross on Carrauntoohill but I do think if people wanted it down there's more appropriate channels to go through rather than sneaking up and cutting it down in the dead of night.
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While on the one hand I am with those who are glad it has gone, I do not think a religious symbol of any kind (and of that size) has any place in a wild public spot for all to see. The way this was done is terrible, what is worse is now a replacement will be easy to make happen. Any possible rational argument against the presence of a cross will now be overshadowed with this act of vandalism and anyone opposed to a new cross will be labelled a thug regardless of their involvement in this or not. Tragic case of a couple of idiots with a lack of vocabulary.
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Agreed on all counts.
What sort of idiot carries the equipment needed for a job like this up a mountain, it literally makes zero sense beyond vandalism for vandalism's sake.
While on the one hand I am with those who are glad it has gone, I do not think a religious symbol of any kind (and of that size) has any place in a wild public spot for all to see. The way this was done is terrible, what is worse is now a replacement will be easy to make happen. Any possible rational argument against the presence of a cross will now be overshadowed with this act of vandalism and anyone opposed to a new cross will be labelled a thug regardless of their involvement in this or not. Tragic case of a couple of idiots with a lack of vocabulary.
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On the equipment side of things it doesn't take much. I have a cordless angle grinder that would be capable of cutting that down no problems and it weighs around 5kg or less, simply backpack would fit it inside nicely.
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What annoys me most about this fiasco is that they weren't considerate enough to take the rusting junk down the mountain with them.
::)
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Absolutely terrible. I would doubt that anybody that wanted it to be removed had any other reason apart from it being a cross.
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Whilst I agree with the comment that there should be no man made structure on top of mountains, (religious or non religious, this was a focal point for pictures to prove you were on top. Here is me in 2013 probably my 5th time
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This is going to be discussed on the Pat Kenny show today (Tue) just after 11am.
Michael Nugent will be on from Atheist Ireland. Should be an interesting conversation.
https://www.newstalk.ie/patkennyshow
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This is going to be discussed on the Pat Kenny show today (Tue) just after 11am.
Michael Nugent will be on from Atheist Ireland. Should be an interesting conversation.
https://www.newstalk.ie/patkennyshow
Thanks Andy, I'll be tuning in to that one.
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"There must be an icon of every religious belief or nothing". This is a very destructive thought. Going by the word, inclusiveness would mean making no ideologically motivated change to a symbol of a different ideology. Neither replacing a Cross with an icon of relativism or of removing it altogether can be said to be inclusive.
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I can't speak for Michael.
But speaking personally, I feel religion tends to pervade every aspect of society from politics to healthcare to schooling. It's in our face all the time whether we are religious or not.
Wouldn't it be be nice if the hills and other wild places could be left alone as a place where natural processes take precedence over supernatural ones. Our landscape is beautiful enough without enshrining it with holy trinkets or relics.
So, I'm with Michael on this.
If we really must decorate our summits, a simple cairn is all that is needed. It's a shared symbol of our humanity and one which every human being understands. It symbolises our shared desire to rise to a challenge and succeed to the top of the mountain. All of humanity takes joy and inspiration from approaching the jumble of rocks at the top. And they can even contribute their own stone to the pile. The same cannot be said of a cross.
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I can't speak for Michael.
But speaking personally, I feel religion tends to pervade every aspect of society from politics to healthcare to schooling. It's in our face all the time whether we are religious or not.
And from our eye, atheism tends to pervade every aspect of society from politics to healthcare to schooling. The reason why this is so is because philosophy is foundational to all of these things. That's what every philosophy does, it is impossible not to have one and affects for the better or worse anything we do.
But the problem comes when people forget that there is no neutral ground to these discussions. If a Cross is being removed from somewhere because of a different ideology, it would only be honest to be borne in mind that the word inclusiveness no longer applies.
Though the argument gets back to it's foundations again, because there's no solid discussions that can be had about these situations unless it comes down to finding the objective truth about what philosophy is true. There is a way to do that sensibly (even though it's not as common today), but it isn't with snideness or vandalism - because vandalism doesn't only happen by the dead of night, it can also be done by executive decision.
But general chat in internet forums isn't usually the best place.
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From the news today it looks like the cross is going to be replaced with a cross and a CCTV camera.
God can obviously not be trusted with the job. ;D
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Anyone know who is paying for the replacement? That part for me raises some issue, if it is the council then it is a clear case of favouritism towards one religious denomination over another. If the church are paying for it, then is this spot public or private land? If private then fair enough all well and good. But if it is on public land then you open the floodgates for anyone to put any kind of symbol they like up there too, you cannot restrict any of them provided they are using the same planning methods without discrimination.
I can see the point of some that it did serve as a historical monument to Irish history and catholicism, but sadly it never really gave any sort of reference for that history. It does not hold historical value in the way something like a stone circle does, or a cathedral. Seems like there was not much in the way of real discussion done on whether or not this should have been replaced, and more a matter of some folks just wanted it replaced. I think that somehow the new one will end up going the same way as the old one, a cctv camera will do bugger all to stop someone who is of the mindset to climb a mountain to cut down anything.
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Cross is back up: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.750836114991243.1073742000.110552822352912&type=1
In related news: http://www.westernpeople.com/2014/12/02/video-emerges-of-carrantuohill-cross-being-cut-down/
Edit: also a post from Mountaineering Ireland about the issue: http://www.mountaineering.ie/aboutus/news/2014/default.aspx?iid=648