Northern Ireland Outdoors Forum - Hiking, camping and more
Outdoor Activities => Northern Ireland Camping and Bushcraft => Topic started by: sjh1 on January 12, 2011
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Is there anywhere in the high Mournes where there are a few bushes or shrubs that could be
used sustainably harvested for firewood?
Have camped in Annalong Forest where campfires are possible and on the Brandy Pad (once) with only a wee stove. I'd love to find somewhere up high where a camp fire is possible.
Incidentally when camping at Annalong Forest have foxes ever approached your camp fires? Last summer one spent about three hours within a few yards of us and took food we threw to it.
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The short answer is, no. The slightly longer answer is, definitely not.
The only areas that are wooded are shown on the map, and while there may be small trees and shrubs like rowan and juniper dotted around these should not be touched (especially the juniper which is a dwarf species unique to the Mournes and ial being replanted).
It is also worth pointing out that even places like Annalong Wood and Donard Wood, despite the commonly held belief to the contrary, are not areas where knocking down trees for firewood (or any other reason) is a public right.
The long and the short of it is that if you want a real fire high up then you need to carry in your own wood and burn it in something like a bushbuddy, a honey stove or a hobo stove.
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The lower lying wooded areas are the only spots where there is enough deadwood to make any sort of fire unfortunately. Doubly unfortunately this is also where the cider drinkers hang out so it's always very messy and full of old discarded tents (if you ever find yourself shy a few tent poles there's always loads in Annalong!).
However, we have found that a hobo stove and firelog or just firelog suffices nicely. Basically if you can stand the extra 1.4kg a whole firelog if put somewhere sheltered will burn for around 90 minutes or more. We use hobo stoves (cutlery drainers from Ikea or bigger tin cans with holes drilled in the sides) fuelled with a firelog that's been cut into chunks because they burn much more efficiently and leave no mess. They can also be used to cook on / boil water. The concept is that while a fire you can see from space is great fun most of the heat is lost whereas a hobo or firelog while not generating as much heat (you can't sit round it in shorts when it's -1) it does give more than enough heat and light for a nice comforting feeling. The biggest plus of course is it's way more fun being in a summit than the slopes.
Just make sure that any fire doesn't run the risk of lighting heather / gorse etc. It's a real problem in the Mournes which can be totally avoided with some basic care.
We'll be hacking up firelogs for this weekends Meelmore Summit Camp (http://www.ni-wild.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1648) so I'll maybe do a blog (http://www.ni-wild.co.uk/blog) post with a few pics about using a hobo.
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OK thanks for replies. I tend to travel light (mostly because I'm not fit!) so apart from once up by the wall have never carried a stove. A firelog/hobo stove combo sounds interesting tho so might try it.
I'm an amateur naturalist and birdwatcher so would not be inclined to cut down a load of trees or wreck the place. However cutting down trees in plantations like Annalong Wood is likely to benefit wildlife by letting in a bit of light and allowing scrub to develop. Like I say tho I travel light so never carry an axe or anything like that, my fires are always from dead wood for practical reasons first and foremost. And although I love a good fire, any I light are definately more campfires than boneys!
However unlikely it is, I still live in hope of finding a wee gully or something in the high Mournes out of the reach of sheep where a bit of wood can be used for a fire.
What about the fox? Anybody ever seen one approach so close and stay for so long when camping in the Mournes?
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especially the juniper which is a dwarf species unique to the Mournes and ial being replanted
On a pedantic point is "Mournes Juniper" a separate species?
I wouldn't have thought so, more likely it's some sort of sub-species or race of the juniper found in the rest of the British Isles.
Still of interest and conservation importance of course, it's just the confusion of sub-species, race or breed with species is a (daft) pet hate of mine.
Bit like the mountain hare (Lepus timidus) and Irish mountain hare (Lepus timidus hibernicus) situation, they're both the same species, something that newspapers continually get wrong.
If Mournes Juniper is indeed a separate species I'll stand corrected.
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What about the fox? Anybody ever seen one approach so close and stay for so long when camping in the Mournes?
The last time (possibly the only time) I camped in Annalong wood there was a fox lingering around, stayed near our campfire for quite a while then wondered off, only to return again about an hour later. I was pretty surprised, as there was a group of maybe 10 chavs camping about 500 meters away, which made it quite an unpleasant night, I could barely put up with them so I've no idea how the fox managed.
I also spotted a fox last week on my summit camp on Bearnagh, just caught it's eyes in the glare of my headtorch while I was cooking some chicken supernoodles, obviously he didn't like the look of them on closer inspection as I didn't seen him again for the rest of the night.
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What about the fox? Anybody ever seen one approach so close and stay for so long when camping in the Mournes?
The last time (possibly the only time) I camped in Annalong wood there was a fox lingering around, stayed near our campfire for quite a while then wondered off, only to return again about an hour later. I was pretty surprised, as there was a group of maybe 10 chavs camping about 500 meters away, which made it quite an unpleasant night, I could barely put up with them so I've no idea how the fox managed.
I also spotted a fox last week on my summit camp on Bearnagh, just caught it's eyes in the glare of my headtorch while I was cooking some chicken supernoodles, obviously he didn't like the look of them on closer inspection as I didn't seen him again for the rest of the night.
This one was around our campfire for ages. I wouldn't be surprised if they would take food out of your hand. I was laying out in the bivvi bag later and it approached like a dog within about a foot of my face. I suspect the foxes are used to people lighting fires there and providing them with food. Likewise the ravens up on the hills will approach and land very close if you're in a group and have stopped for food. This from a bird that's usually shy of humans and wary of novel food types.
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On a pedantic point is "Mournes Juniper" a separate species?
:) In a totally unpedantic reply, no it isn't! It's probably best described as a biovar ... but who on an outdoors forum knows what one of them is! Lol
Juniper is one of the few plants that are native to Ireland and is on the NI priority species list. It has been disappearing from the Mournes for some time and the plants that do exist are mature - there are very few seedlings - and the mature plants have very few berries (which take several years to mature).
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On a pedantic point is "Mournes Juniper" a separate species?
:) In a totally unpedantic reply, no it isn't! It's probably best described as a biovar ... but who on an outdoors forum knows what one of them is! Lol
Not me for a start! (Although possibly short for biological variety?)
Found this abstract on juniper in NI...
http://www.jstor.org/pss/25536808 (http://www.jstor.org/pss/25536808)
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I've had foxes munching food in the alcove of student's tents, foxes that, apparently, would not budge when shouted at. And I have had a fox (I think it was a fox) prowl round me on a bivvy at the edge of Annalong wood ( seehttp://thisteacherslife.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/frightening/ (http://thisteacherslife.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/frightening/) for details). A friend told me that his mate was bivvying at the base of cove. I am told it was a misty night and he woke as if sensing something. He woke to see a fox break from the mist and run straight for him. It snapped up a packet of jaffa cakes sitting beside his head.
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Mr fox paid us a visit in Annalong wood it walked straight past me in my bivi and sniffed around my mate swinging in his hammock , we both watched it for 20min as it sniffed round one a tent then it popped it's head in and pulled out a rucksack and took sausages , we thought this was hilarous as lying in tent was a drunk naked polish mate who still blames us to this day of eating his sausages ,
As for feeding a fox I don't think it's a good idea as they can become too over friendly and it only takes one person sitting having a sandwich on a Sunday stroll to be visited by over friendly fox to freak out , next day mass hysteria killer foxes loose on mournes , prob a bit of an over exaggeration :P but I was always told you can watch mother nature but never touch ;)
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As for feeding a fox I don't think it's a good idea...
Have to agree with this. The behaviour being described is what you would expect from an urban fox not a country fox - in fact it's the exact opposite of what you would expect from a country fox.
On a different note, has anyone seen any badgers up in the hills? I ask because I've seen a photograph of one noodling about near Doan (if I remember correctly).
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I have seen badger tracks (not big dog tracks) one morning in the Annalong valley. It had joined the path that goes up the west side of the valley and used the path for a couple of hundred meters before leaving the path in a direction off towards the zig zag path near lower cove.
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Just to add some pics/vids to the topic :)
This fox tried to pull Redleader's ruck around the Bog of Donard:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/4717606430_c478ee60b2_b.jpg)
This is the cheapy Hobo stove that RL's talking about that a couple of us have, was a couple of pounds to buy, dead light.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5090/5349798345_ac03c052c5.jpg)
I use a hex block to start it off, then some dry twigs/kindling and a couple of lumps of fire log to keep it going (warm the fire log up a bit in the house to make it easier to cut..then wack lumps off it with a spade/axe/sharp knife. I've even seen Dowser making thick sausage shaped jobbies out of them and covering in cling film..dead easy to slip into any spare room you have in your ruck)
Video here:
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I don't think feeding foxes is any problem, to me it just shows how adaptable and opportunistic they are, similar to the ravens that come down when you stop for a bite. If a fox approaches me when I'm sleeping out I think I'll always throw it a wee bit of food, just like I always leave a bit for the ravens. My hypothesis was that, because so many people light fires, camp and leave behind all sorts of rubbish (no doubt including food) in Annalong Wood, the foxes have learned to exploit these fires as a food source. It also reminded me of theories on how the first dogs were domesticated.
I'm sure if somebody got nipped it would be all over the papers but, ach well, the media are idiots. My only worry would be if you got fools camping up there who would attack the fox!
Nice pic of fox up at Bog of Donard Chuck. I've seen the odd scat up on Donard before and wondered how far up into the open hills the foxes regularly venture but from that pic and the stories on this thread it seems that the apparent lack of prey up there is no problem. Again shows how adaptable they are. (Not sure what, "tried to pull Redleader's ruck" means tho!)
Chuck and RedLeader, thanks for info on firelogs and hobo stoves, think I'll give that a go. Will take a look at that you-tube video and would be interested in reading any blog-post on the subject. I think due to thin, peaty soils and harsh conditions natural woodland in the high Mournes was always probably scarce and sheep grazing prevents any possible regeneration. However will still be on the (admitedly probably futile) hunt for any wee scrubby gullies up in the hills though...
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Foxes in the Mournes:
What am I thinking, I have an awesome fox story :)
When we marshalled the iPlod last year me and MG1 were at stationed at the Bog of Donard and at around midnight a fox wandered up by the wall. Totally unafraid it came within a meter or two, sat and watched us for a sec, posed for a photo, then disappeared off. After a while we jumped into our tents for a quick sleep and after an hour or so I got up to find my rucksack which I had left by the wall had gone. Initially I was suspicious that MikeD and 666_Pack had thought it would be funny to come down off Donard summit to mess with our stuff, but realistically, who would drop and reclimb 300m in the pitch dark at 1am to play a trick... I started to circle the camp in nothing short of desperation because I didn't want to come on the radio like a plonker saying I'd managed to lose my rucksack. About 15 meters out I found the bag in a ditch with a tell tale bite hole in the top - obviously the fox had smelled my beef sausages and unable to resist had dragged it off. Lacking thumbs it was unable to open the drawstring so the sausages were safe however my nice new OMM bag was totally foxed! The amusing thing was the 2 guys that Action Medical Research had supplied as helpers were sleeping in bivvy bags right next to where it had been sitting and had dozed through the entire criminal incident!
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5202/5351002855_e956454774_z.jpg)
Earlier in the year we had hiked over to Annalong Wood and late in the evening we spotted at least 2, probably 3 foxes circling the camp. They never came close but hung on the periphery for quite a time. We never saw them at the camp but I was worried that I'd waken up to find them licking my face!
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5202/5351002963_4f1ecb60d9_z.jpg)
Totally forgot, on the first NI-Wild Slieve Bearnagh summit camp when we got up in the morning through the mist we could see a fox slinking ahead of us. They really do get everywhere!
(http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii423/sputnik57/Bernagh/DSCF3816.jpg)
So if foxes are carnivores then what is there in the hills for them to eat? We've never spotted any rabbits or suchlike.
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I don't think feeding foxes is any problem
I'd be inclined to think that feeding foxes is entirely the problem. I'm no animal behaviorist, but if a fox was just looking to scavenge through rubbish it would surely wait until everyone left. If it's actually coming up to a camp and hanging about, then its waiting to be fed. Which would suggest people do it often.
All I will say is I'm glad we don't have bears in Northern Ireland :D
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Red Leader that second picture reminds me very much of our sighting in Annalong Forest. The fox was also circling us but came a lot closer and stayed for a few hours. First time I spotted it was when I heard a stereotypical twig-crack right behind me and swung the torch round. We were talking away and moving about at that stage too.
Foxes are very opportunistic eaters. Worms, beetles, berries etc. can play a large part in the diet. Probably shrews, wood mice, and the odd hare might be found on the open hills. Sheep carrion could be quite important up in the Mournes too?
Seemingly people have different views, but personally I was delighted to have a fox visiting us and never thought anybody would think any different tbh. I suspect exploiting larger predators (bears, wolves, humans) for food is a perfectly natural behaviour on the part of this adaptable species. I also thought that such behaviour might have started with foxes approaching campsites and clearing up rubbish after the humans had gone and developed from that. It would be interesting to hear if similar fox behaviour has been documented in other mountain areas?
I compare the behaviour to that of the ravens because they have also approached and landed very close to me for food I've thrown down in the high Mournes. This is unusual behaviour for ravens because they've been shown to be shy of humans and of new food types. However like foxes they're an adaptable species and also very intelligent. In the near future I'm possibly getting a very short note on this Mournes raven behaviour published on the British Birds journal website.
Re. bears, feeding them seems to be no problem at all. Well American black bears anyway. There was a great BBC programme on recently about a researcher who does just that. In 40 years of study he's found that there's no connection between householders providing food and "problem" bears. He's also fed bears from the hand in the woods for 40 years and never once been attacked. A lot riskier than foxes or ravens...
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Re. bears, feeding them seems to be no problem at all. Well American black bears anyway. There was a great BBC programme on recently about a researcher who does just that. In 40 years of study he's found that there's no connection between householders providing food and "problem" bears. He's also fed bears from the hand in the woods for 40 years and never once been attacked. A lot riskier than foxes or ravens...
The point was made in that documentary that it was important that the bears retained their natural fear of humans because other, less nature minded, humans would kill the bears. The reason they would kill the bears was because of the long held fear of bears that would kill humans ... but the reason bears used humans as a food source was because their hunger overcame their fear. The reason that there were no "problem" bears in the area where they were being fed was that they weren't hungry enough to ignore their fear of humans and have a munch on a leg or two. My fear for that fox is that that some twat will have a go at it.
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My fear for that fox is that that some twat will have a go at it.
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I'd have the same concern. Maybe we shouldn't be too worried tho when considering the number of foxes that are shot or trapped as vermin.
Don't want to go round in circles here but I'll reiterate that foxes are adaptable and opportunistic and will take advantage of whatever food source they can. They're naturally curious and experimental when foraging. Exploiting larger predators (e.g. bear or wolf kills; human campfires) is likely to be typical fox behaviour and I don't think there's much we can do about that. Unless everybody who camps in the Mournes starts chasing them away when they approach, they're likely to occasionally (or regularly) try their luck at a fire.
This has only happened once to me so I don't exactly go out intending to feed foxes. Like I say though if a fox ever approaches again I'll not hesitate in giving it a bit of food.
Strange that people don't seem as concerned about feeding the ravens? (I'd put it down to differing cultural attitudes to wild birds and wild mammals but that's a separate topic!)
Anyway foxes were only meant to be an aside to the main topic of this thread which was the potential for campfires and firewood in the high Mournes! A thread specifically for Mournes wildlife might be a good idea?
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Re. bears, feeding them seems to be no problem at all. Well American black bears anyway. There was a great BBC programme on recently about a researcher who does just that. In 40 years of study he's found that there's no connection between householders providing food and "problem" bears. He's also fed bears from the hand in the woods for 40 years and never once been attacked. A lot riskier than foxes or ravens...
The point was made in that documentary that it was important that the bears retained their natural fear of humans because other, less nature minded, humans would kill the bears. The reason they would kill the bears was because of the long held fear of bears that would kill humans ... but the reason bears used humans as a food source was because their hunger overcame their fear. The reason that there were no "problem" bears in the area where they were being fed was that they weren't hungry enough to ignore their fear of humans and have a munch on a leg or two.
Bears are even further off subject but take a look at this...
http://www.bearstudy.org/website/images/stories/Publications/diversionary_feeding_of_black_bears_9_june_2009.pdf (http://www.bearstudy.org/website/images/stories/Publications/diversionary_feeding_of_black_bears_9_june_2009.pdf)
Of course you can't extend bear studies onto foxes but interesting nonetheless.
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Strange that people don't seem as concerned about feeding the ravens? (I'd put it down to differing cultural attitudes to wild birds and wild mammals but that's a separate topic!)
Interesting thread, I wouldn't worry about it going off-topic, threads always have a tendancy to meander ;)
Again, personally, I wouldnt feed the Ravens. I do love seeing Ravens though. Whilst some people see them as some kind of bad omen I always feel they share an affinity for the high places. Always think it feels special when you are on a summit by yourself, surrounded by cloud, and hear the call of a Raven before it swoops in and lands on the summit cairn...
I remember recently reading about the problem of seagulls on popular summits around the UK. Again, I'm no bird expert so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but seagulls aren't usually spotted in the mountains. Certainly when I did Ben Nevis last year the summit was covered in seagulls. The call of a seagull seems very out of place on a high mountain summit, but apparently the seagulls have got wise to the amount of litter left on these summits and know its an easy spot to pick up food. Ben Nevis perhaps is a bad example, seeing it is situated very close to a sea loch, but it would appear that seagulls on summits is as a direct result of human feeding, whether intentional or unintentional.
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Strange that people don't seem as concerned about feeding the ravens? (I'd put it down to differing cultural attitudes to wild birds and wild mammals but that's a separate topic!)
Interesting thread, I wouldn't worry about it going off-topic, threads always have a tendancy to meander ;)
Again, personally, I wouldnt feed the Ravens. I do love seeing Ravens though. Whilst some people see them as some kind of bad omen I always feel they share an affinity for the high places. Always think it feels special when you are on a summit by yourself, surrounded by cloud, and hear the call of a Raven before it swoops in and lands on the summit cairn...
I remember recently reading about the problem of seagulls on popular summits around the UK. Again, I'm no bird expert so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but seagulls aren't usually spotted in the mountains. Certainly when I did Ben Nevis last year the summit was covered in seagulls. The call of a seagull seems very out of place on a high mountain summit, but apparently the seagulls have got wise to the amount of litter left on these summits and know its an easy spot to pick up food. Ben Nevis perhaps is a bad example, seeing it is situated very close to a sea loch, but it would appear that seagulls on summits is as a direct result of human feeding, whether intentional or unintentional.
Ah OK (but would like to see Red Leader's potential blog-post on hobo-stoves and firelogs - seriously considering giving them a go).
Ravens are possibly my favourite bird species. They show a load of interesting behaviours including play (play behaviour in birds is something I'm particularly interested in) and are thought to be very intelligent. Hearing the call up in the mountains is fantastic. When you see them up close you realise how big these birds are too, in the large spaces of the hills their size can be underestimated on a distant view. A great book is Mind of the Raven by Bernd Heinrich, he's studied them for years.
"Sea"gulls is a bit of a misnomer. No British gulls are confined to the coast, all will breed and forage inland. Usually gulls wouldn't be common on any mountaintop, probably simply due to lack of food. However they're another group of species that are highly adaptable, generalist and opportunistic. If there's a lot of rubbish and scraps on these summits then gulls are likely to take advantage and no doubt that's what's happened on Nevis.
Conservation-wise it's the specialist species that have specific habitat or dietary requirements and can't adapt to human activities that are the problem. Generalists like foxes, ravens and gulls are often more interesting behaviourally though.
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pah, all this talk about foxes, gulls, ravens & even bears when the real issue in the mournes is actually cows :o ok, it more of a lowland phenonemem and completely off topic now but we had our campsite at the Rowan tree river invaded by cows once (well 2 of them, but their friends were waiting close by) , they looked like they were looking for food as they went to the unused fire pit and started licking the tins left by previous campers, their were about 20 tents around and that didn't deter them, had to be careful chasing them out so they didn't trample someones tent.
But I was wondering what effect a dog would have on the foxes, would they stay clear or maybe go for a little schnauzer in someone bivvy bag!!!!
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pah, all this talk about foxes, gulls, ravens & even bears when the real issue in the mournes is actually cows
The most cunning, lightning quick, vicious animal known to man. Once they start stalking you you're essentially already dead ::)
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we had our campsite at the Rowan tree river invaded by cows once (well 2 of them, but their friends were waiting close by)
Think we passed that same herd on the Mourne Way. Actually, we passed another herd close to the back of Rostrevor as well, and there were a fair few between Hen and Cock when we had our New Years Eve jaunt. I'm not a big fan of cows unless they are on my plate with a nice peppered sauce ;)
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;D I'm with you on the cows, when they charge at you it's scary!
(Think a dog would probably deter foxes btw)