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Author Topic: High Mournes Campsites with fuel!  (Read 18806 times)

RedLeader

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Re: High Mournes Campsites with fuel!
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2011 »

Foxes in the Mournes:

What am I thinking, I have an awesome fox story :)

When we marshalled the iPlod last year me and MG1 were at stationed at the Bog of Donard and at around midnight a fox wandered up by the wall. Totally unafraid it came within a meter or two, sat and watched us for a sec, posed for a photo, then disappeared off. After a while we jumped into our tents for a quick sleep and after an hour or so I got up to find my rucksack which I had left by the wall had gone. Initially I was suspicious that MikeD and 666_Pack had thought it would be funny to come down off Donard summit to mess with our stuff, but realistically, who would drop and reclimb 300m in the pitch dark at 1am to play a trick... I started to circle the camp in nothing short of desperation because I didn't want to come on the radio like a plonker saying I'd managed to lose my rucksack. About 15 meters out I found the bag in a ditch with a tell tale bite hole in the top - obviously the fox had smelled my beef sausages and unable to resist had dragged it off. Lacking thumbs it was unable to open the drawstring so the sausages were safe however my nice new OMM bag was totally foxed! The amusing thing was the 2 guys that Action Medical Research had supplied as helpers were sleeping in bivvy bags right next to where it had been sitting and had dozed through the entire criminal incident!




Earlier in the year we had hiked over to Annalong Wood and late in the evening we spotted at least 2, probably 3 foxes circling the camp. They never came close but hung on the periphery for quite a time. We never saw them at the camp but I was worried that I'd waken up to find them licking my face!




Totally forgot, on the first NI-Wild Slieve Bearnagh summit camp when we got up in the morning through the mist we could see a fox slinking ahead of us. They really do get everywhere!





So if foxes are carnivores then what is there in the hills for them to eat? We've never spotted any rabbits or suchlike.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011 by RedLeader »
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suspectmonkey

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Re: High Mournes Campsites with fuel!
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2011 »

I don't think feeding foxes is any problem

I'd be inclined to think that feeding foxes is entirely the problem.  I'm no animal behaviorist, but if a fox was just looking to scavenge through rubbish it would surely wait until everyone left.  If it's actually coming up to a camp and hanging about, then its waiting to be fed.  Which would suggest people do it often.

All I will say is I'm glad we don't have bears in Northern Ireland :D
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sjh1

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Re: High Mournes Campsites with fuel!
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2011 »

Red Leader that second picture reminds me very much of our sighting in Annalong Forest. The fox was also circling us but came a lot closer and stayed for a few hours. First time I spotted it was when I heard a stereotypical twig-crack right behind me and swung the torch round. We were talking away and moving about at that stage too.

Foxes are very opportunistic eaters. Worms, beetles, berries etc. can play a large part in the diet. Probably shrews, wood mice, and the odd hare might be found on the open hills. Sheep carrion could be quite important up in the Mournes too?

Seemingly people have different views, but personally I was delighted to have a fox visiting us and never thought anybody would think any different tbh. I suspect exploiting larger predators (bears, wolves, humans) for food is a perfectly natural behaviour on the part of this adaptable species. I also thought that such behaviour might have started with foxes approaching campsites and clearing up rubbish after the humans had gone and developed from that. It would be interesting to hear if similar fox behaviour has been documented in other mountain areas?

I compare the behaviour to that of the ravens because they have also approached and landed very close to me for food I've thrown down in the high Mournes. This is unusual behaviour for ravens because they've been shown to be shy of humans and of new food types. However like foxes they're an adaptable species and also very intelligent. In the near future I'm possibly getting a very short note on this Mournes raven behaviour published on the British Birds journal website.

Re. bears, feeding them seems to be no problem at all. Well American black bears anyway. There was a great BBC programme on recently about a researcher who does just that. In 40 years of study he's found that there's no connection between householders providing food and "problem" bears. He's also fed bears from the hand in the woods for 40 years and never once been attacked. A lot riskier than foxes or ravens...
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Of wet and of wildness? Let them be left,
O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet.

... from 'Inversnaid' by Gerard Manley Hopkins.

simon

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Re: High Mournes Campsites with fuel!
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2011 »


Re. bears, feeding them seems to be no problem at all. Well American black bears anyway. There was a great BBC programme on recently about a researcher who does just that. In 40 years of study he's found that there's no connection between householders providing food and "problem" bears. He's also fed bears from the hand in the woods for 40 years and never once been attacked. A lot riskier than foxes or ravens...


The point was made in that documentary that it was important that the bears retained their natural fear of humans because other, less nature minded, humans would kill the bears. The reason they would kill the bears was because of the long held fear of bears that would kill humans ... but the reason bears used humans as a food source was because their hunger overcame their fear. The reason that there were no "problem" bears in the area where they were being fed was that they weren't hungry enough to ignore their fear of humans and have a munch on a leg or two. My fear for that fox is that that some twat will have a go at it.
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sjh1

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Re: High Mournes Campsites with fuel!
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2011 »


My fear for that fox is that that some twat will have a go at it.
[/quote]

I'd have the same concern. Maybe we shouldn't be too worried tho when considering the number of foxes that are shot or trapped as vermin.

Don't want to go round in circles here but I'll reiterate that foxes are adaptable and opportunistic and will take advantage of whatever food source they can. They're naturally curious and experimental when foraging. Exploiting larger predators (e.g. bear or wolf kills; human campfires) is likely to be typical fox behaviour and I don't think there's much we can do about that. Unless everybody who camps in the Mournes starts chasing them away when they approach, they're likely to occasionally (or regularly) try their luck at a fire.

This has only happened once to me so I don't exactly go out intending to feed foxes. Like I say though if a fox ever approaches again I'll not hesitate in giving it a bit of food.

Strange that people don't seem as concerned about feeding the ravens? (I'd put it down to differing cultural attitudes to wild birds and wild mammals but that's a separate topic!)

Anyway foxes were only meant to be an aside to the main topic of this thread which was the potential for campfires and firewood in the high Mournes! A thread specifically for Mournes wildlife might be a good idea?
 

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What would the world be, once bereft
Of wet and of wildness? Let them be left,
O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet.

... from 'Inversnaid' by Gerard Manley Hopkins.

sjh1

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Re: High Mournes Campsites with fuel!
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2011 »


Re. bears, feeding them seems to be no problem at all. Well American black bears anyway. There was a great BBC programme on recently about a researcher who does just that. In 40 years of study he's found that there's no connection between householders providing food and "problem" bears. He's also fed bears from the hand in the woods for 40 years and never once been attacked. A lot riskier than foxes or ravens...


The point was made in that documentary that it was important that the bears retained their natural fear of humans because other, less nature minded, humans would kill the bears. The reason they would kill the bears was because of the long held fear of bears that would kill humans ... but the reason bears used humans as a food source was because their hunger overcame their fear. The reason that there were no "problem" bears in the area where they were being fed was that they weren't hungry enough to ignore their fear of humans and have a munch on a leg or two.

Bears are even further off subject but take a look at this...

http://www.bearstudy.org/website/images/stories/Publications/diversionary_feeding_of_black_bears_9_june_2009.pdf

Of course you can't extend bear studies onto foxes but interesting nonetheless.
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What would the world be, once bereft
Of wet and of wildness? Let them be left,
O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet.

... from 'Inversnaid' by Gerard Manley Hopkins.

suspectmonkey

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Re: High Mournes Campsites with fuel!
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2011 »

Strange that people don't seem as concerned about feeding the ravens? (I'd put it down to differing cultural attitudes to wild birds and wild mammals but that's a separate topic!)

Interesting thread, I wouldn't worry about it going off-topic, threads always have a tendancy to meander ;)

Again, personally, I wouldnt feed the Ravens.  I do love seeing Ravens though.  Whilst some people see them as some kind of bad omen I always feel they share an affinity for the high places.  Always think it feels special when you are on a summit by yourself, surrounded by cloud, and hear the call of a Raven before it swoops in and lands on the summit cairn...

I remember recently reading about the problem of seagulls on popular summits around the UK.  Again, I'm no bird expert so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but seagulls aren't usually spotted in the mountains.  Certainly when I did Ben Nevis last year the summit was covered in seagulls.  The call of a seagull seems very out of place on a high mountain summit, but apparently the seagulls have got wise to the amount of litter left on these summits and know its an easy spot to pick up food.  Ben Nevis perhaps is a bad example, seeing it is situated very close to a sea loch, but it would appear that seagulls on summits is as a direct result of human feeding, whether intentional or unintentional.
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sjh1

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Re: High Mournes Campsites with fuel!
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2011 »

Strange that people don't seem as concerned about feeding the ravens? (I'd put it down to differing cultural attitudes to wild birds and wild mammals but that's a separate topic!)

Interesting thread, I wouldn't worry about it going off-topic, threads always have a tendancy to meander ;)

Again, personally, I wouldnt feed the Ravens.  I do love seeing Ravens though.  Whilst some people see them as some kind of bad omen I always feel they share an affinity for the high places.  Always think it feels special when you are on a summit by yourself, surrounded by cloud, and hear the call of a Raven before it swoops in and lands on the summit cairn...

I remember recently reading about the problem of seagulls on popular summits around the UK.  Again, I'm no bird expert so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but seagulls aren't usually spotted in the mountains.  Certainly when I did Ben Nevis last year the summit was covered in seagulls.  The call of a seagull seems very out of place on a high mountain summit, but apparently the seagulls have got wise to the amount of litter left on these summits and know its an easy spot to pick up food.  Ben Nevis perhaps is a bad example, seeing it is situated very close to a sea loch, but it would appear that seagulls on summits is as a direct result of human feeding, whether intentional or unintentional.

Ah OK (but would like to see Red Leader's potential blog-post on hobo-stoves and firelogs - seriously considering giving them a go).

Ravens are possibly my favourite bird species. They show a load of interesting behaviours including play (play behaviour in birds is something I'm particularly interested in) and are thought to be very intelligent. Hearing the call up in the mountains is fantastic. When you see them up close you realise how big these birds are too, in the large spaces of the hills their size can be underestimated on a distant view. A great book is Mind of the Raven by Bernd Heinrich, he's studied them for years.

"Sea"gulls is a bit of a misnomer. No British gulls are confined to the coast, all will breed and forage inland. Usually gulls wouldn't be common on any mountaintop, probably simply due to lack of food. However they're another group of species that are highly adaptable, generalist and opportunistic. If there's a lot of rubbish and scraps on these summits then gulls are likely to take advantage and no doubt that's what's happened on Nevis.

Conservation-wise it's the specialist species that have specific habitat or dietary requirements and can't adapt to human activities that are the problem. Generalists like foxes, ravens and gulls are often more interesting behaviourally though.
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What would the world be, once bereft
Of wet and of wildness? Let them be left,
O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet.

... from 'Inversnaid' by Gerard Manley Hopkins.

LandyLiam

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Re: High Mournes Campsites with fuel!
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2011 »

pah, all this talk about foxes, gulls, ravens & even bears when the real issue in the mournes is actually cows  :o  ok, it more of a lowland phenonemem and completely off topic now but we had our campsite at the Rowan tree river invaded by cows once (well 2 of them, but their friends were waiting close by) , they looked like they were looking for food as they went to the unused fire pit and started licking the tins left by previous campers, their were about 20 tents around and that didn't deter them, had to be careful chasing them out so they didn't trample someones tent.

But I was wondering what effect a dog would have on the foxes, would they stay clear or maybe go for a little schnauzer in someone bivvy bag!!!!
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RedLeader

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Re: High Mournes Campsites with fuel!
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2011 »

pah, all this talk about foxes, gulls, ravens & even bears when the real issue in the mournes is actually cows

The most cunning, lightning quick, vicious animal known to man. Once they start stalking you you're essentially already dead  ::)
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suspectmonkey

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Re: High Mournes Campsites with fuel!
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2011 »

we had our campsite at the Rowan tree river invaded by cows once (well 2 of them, but their friends were waiting close by)

Think we passed that same herd on the Mourne Way.  Actually, we passed another herd close to the back of Rostrevor as well, and there were a fair few between Hen and Cock when we had our New Years Eve jaunt.  I'm not a big fan of cows unless they are on my plate with a nice peppered sauce ;)
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sjh1

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Re: High Mournes Campsites with fuel!
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2011 »

 ;D I'm with you on the cows, when they charge at you it's scary!

(Think a dog would probably deter foxes btw)
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What would the world be, once bereft
Of wet and of wildness? Let them be left,
O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet.

... from 'Inversnaid' by Gerard Manley Hopkins.
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